US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[nic4us]

nic4us,

I'm an East '88 hire and I was never furloughed. I was a 737 Captain in PHL in January 2000, and then BWI thru December 2001 with just over 2000 pilots below me. I was sitting at about 60% on our list (where were you in Jan 2000?). After 9/11, and the ensuing bankruptcies and furloughs, there were 120 pilots between me and the street. I found myself sitting at about 99% on our list! So why did I stick around?........Attrition!!! It was coming, and coming hard and fast. By December 2007 I was back within 425 numbers of the left seat again (not talking 190 here either). Why?.......Attrition!!! Had the retirement door not slammed shut I would be back in the left seat or very close to it by now. By the time the doors open again we will have MORE THAN, yes MORE THAN 1250 over age 60 guys on the East and advancement will begin again.....and accelerate. Think about it....that's more than 1 in 3 East pilots over age 60! And actually I believe those numbers are conservative. It's probably closer to 1500! 45%! Nearly 1 in 2! Got the picture yet?

I, and guys like me, contributed to keep this company healthy because of that attrition. We invested the blood, sweat and years!!! And we didn't do it so you on the West could come in here and 'steal our future' just because some misguided arbitrator said so. Look, I don't believe the West should have to pay for, nor be penalized for what we've been through here on the East. However, you shouldn't be rewarded or benefit from it either. That is exactly what has happened with Nicolau having given no regard for LOS and not providing protection for our attrition.

Consider this. A friend of mine was hired on the East 11 years after myself and was 1070 numbers junior to me. He was furloughed and subsequently hired at America West. He is now 600 senior to me on the NIC (and 1800 numbers senior to himself, LOL)? Aprox. 325 west guys are senior to me by date of hire. I could understand 700, or maybe even 900 going ahead of me given the despairities between our two groups. However, having ALL but 50 West pilots go ahead of me is ludicrous. I was hired young. I have 22 years in and about 20 to go. I would have retired in the top 25 but will now top out at #700 at best under NIC. Like I said in a previous post, a good arbitration would have struck a balance. Nicolau failed! He failed you, me, the company, and ALPA. BTW, have you seen ALPA's merger policy lately.....as it pertains to seniority integration?

As for your subsequent post (#797)....I'm a junior FO now, and no, I don't want a meager pay raise. I've taken a 50% cut through downgrades and concessions. That means a 100% raise to get me back to my 2000, 2001 wages (that's a decade ago! Have you been here a decade yet?). Hell, even with my wife now working, combined, we still have not grossed more than I made alone in 2001. So, I have adjusted......and a meager 20% raise with a smaller minimum fleet, more shrinkage, and NIC do not interest me. You're right about one thing. The amount of pay we can extract from the company in this economy is limited. And quite frankly....it ain't comin'! But attrition is! And yes, so long as we are separate IT IS OURS!

Hey, here's an idea. Give old "Save Dave" Odell a call. Tell him we'll give him 12 yr (top of scale) FO pay right now..... but he'll NEVER check out. Think he'll go for that? Yeah, I didn't think so! VNIIMN!

Thanks for the explanation, I had thought Coello was an 87 hire but see he was 7-88. I will offer this.

1. Since you ask, in Jan 2000 I was an A320 captain in PHX. After 911, I was still an A320 captain and there where considerably more than 120 between me and the street. In 2005 I was still an A320 captain and had more below me as a % than you ever did, but I had that in 2000 also. Yet, (I am assuming you were hired around 6-88) you were hired at USAir before I was hired at AWA.

2. The West is not coming in here, the West is not being added to your list, and you are saying just that. If that were what was happening you would have valid arguements, but that is not what is happening. Your list isn't the surviving list with us added to it, heck, your company is not the surviving company for that matter either.

3. Yes I have seen the new ALPA merger policy, an nowhere in it does it say DOH. The addition of consideration for LOS, does not hold any greater preference than the other tenants, and would have made little to no difference in our case.

4. The mistake your friend made was he should have tried to get hired at AWA in 99 instead of USAirways, but hindsight is 20-20. He is not 1800 numbers senior to himself, his furloughed persona is 1800 numbers junior to his employed position. Again, the mistake you are making is saying he is being put back in the east list.

5. I will leave it up to usapa to contact Odell, they will need the address of where to send the check.

 

[flypg]

Careful there. You might find the sane and reasonable response as a harrasment complaint seeking your termination if you are bold enough to confront her without an alias.

You are right. This must be then the same person blasting unsolicited e-mails that borders on harassement.

Thanks for the warning.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, You quoted my fence. I can't move a west pilot backwards if I can't go there. Nothing disingenuous. They signed on to narrowbody jobs out west and that's all they should get. They should keep their advancement ,out west. They shouldn't be able to use that advancement back east.

How nice to offer that knowing that post-merger gains will be predominately going to the East...

Shrinkage, new equipment, moving time from one base to another, etc. all enter the equation. Take the A332's, 3 extra 757's and the 25 (soon to be 15) E190's. All post-merger, none scheduled for delivery by "old" US. Yet your fence hands East the new flying on a silver platter. That new flying gives a boost to East advancement. Sure beats facing liquidation doesn't it?

No - the "What's mine is mine, what's our's is mine, and only what's left of yours is yours" doesn't cut it. While you personally may have no interest in any job out West, the DOH proposal doesn't have that fence so what you say is nothing more than words. There are plenty of East pilots who would jump at a chance to go out West if USAPA's DOH list/fences prevailed and you can't deny it - how many East pilots who were furloughed 4 years ago would jump all over a chance to be 757 captains? So saying that you personally don't want to go West is nothing more than a grain of sand on the beach - it has no impact on what would happen under USAPA's DOH proposal.

You see, there are only two paths - the Nic or USAPA's proposed seniority list. Arguing some other path is nothing more than a way to feign innocence for what would happen to the West pilots under USAPA's proposal. It's a common tactic among East posters but doesn't carry any weight as long as the East insists on DOH. The East pilots are so concerned that some West pilot might get the advantage of some of the East attrition, yet will gladly take the West attrition for themselves. The East would gladly watch West pilots furloughed while insisting that an East pilot who was furloughed at the merger be allowed to take captain jobs in the West. It's that East "all or nothing" approach that has put you in the mess you're in now - the union guilty of DFR violations, still paying the same dues to fund a hopeless legal battle, facing damages, etc.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

All USAPA has to do is represent the west interests equally with the east and that means abide by the arbitrated award. To delay or deny a vote as a means of unfairly supporting east interests is the crux of a DFR suit.

So negotiate a contract and put it out to a vote and give it the support that a union representing both sides should do. There is nothing unfair about it failing, but delaying a contract is unfair.

 

[flypg]

Riiight - how dare he have a better career than you. Why not just take his gains for yourself...he didn't deserve to have the success you didn't get.

Jim

Jim, please can you play nice ?......You are retired, please dont be bitter. BTW, you are so much more objective when you leave that out.

 

[flypg]

What?...That from merely "YAWN..GEAR UP" sir?

From the initial announcement of the nic, immediately (and literally) followed by deluged west postings of (no kidding here, any can check the posting archives) "Booyooshaka!!!"..."It's OVER!...Get used to it!"...somewhat later: "You won't even get 200 cards!"..."Send the cards..I DARE you!"...We've seen/heard west folks noting on video: "Do you know why I hate you guys!!?...I hate all of youse!!"..."There is a west and an east..and we hate you guys.."....the famous "You can live on LOA93 Forever!!"....well...What I've sometimes almost actually wondered is whether or not such postings were the result of a calculated effort at infuriating, distancing and entirely alienating the east....honestly; it's almost impossible to believe otherwise at times.

Add to that the west response towards the east's profit sharing, (actual sharing with the west that is)..which amounted to "Thanks...Suckers!!", and the additional west "support" for pay parity as well :blink: My personal "favorite" was/is the west campaign of denying jumpseats to their east 'fellow pilots"...All in all...a pretty impressive demonstration of just how much "Integrity" truly "Matters"...and why all should now "move forward" as one happy family...and immediately vote in some/ANY contract, regardless of how pathetic it would be...so long as it included the nic nastiness

There's evidently no worries for the west contingent though, as even recent postings state: "The east resolve is crumbling. Put up a contract and it will pass." "the east captains I talk to say the same." (All of the east captains posting here must represent only a tiny handfull of insane holdouts I suppose)..."..the east pilots require far more education and correction than any other group of employees at any other airline"..."it's not YOUR attrition anymore"..."Well, it's not really up to you."..."Can't wait for you to be my FO. We'll have a great time."

"...the east pilots require far more education and correction than any other group of employees at any other airline." In all fairness to that: I must acknowledge that the west contingent has fully supplied the "education" required for any rational east pilot to fully appreciate the potential joys attendant to voting in nic, and being then able to look forward to sharing a cockpit with the west. I can't speak for all others but, to my thinking; that inestimable benefit alone should be worth any sacrifce for the group or any individual east pilot.......


"Does anyone understand how the east thinks?" Methinks a better question would be: Could anyone, even POSSIBLY....NOT understand how the east thinks?..and why?

EastUs !....I do love you man ! You MUST let me buy you your favorite beverage.

 

[flyinawa]

Jim, please can you play nice ?......You are retired, please dont be bitter. BTW, you are so much more objective when you leave that out.

His replies are no less valid than an East pilot in the top 517. Integration doesn't effect them in any way, shape, or form. I also find his posts to be factual, which is refreshing when compared to the "I heard..." or "I think....", which frankly nobody gives a damn about.

 

[flypg]

nic4us,

I'm an East '88 hire and I was never furloughed. I was a 737 Captain in PHL in January 2000, and then BWI thru December 2001 with just over 2000 pilots below me. I was sitting at about 60% on our list (where were you in Jan 2000?). After 9/11, and the ensuing bankruptcies and furloughs, there were 120 pilots between me and the street. I found myself sitting at about 99% on our list! So why did I stick around?........Attrition!!! It was coming, and coming hard and fast. By December 2007 I was back within 425 numbers of the left seat again (not talking 190 here either). Why?.......Attrition!!! Had the retirement door not slammed shut I would be back in the left seat or very close to it by now. By the time the doors open again we will have MORE THAN, yes MORE THAN 1250 over age 60 guys on the East and advancement will begin again.....and accelerate. Think about it....that's more than 1 in 3 East pilots over age 60! And actually I believe those numbers are conservative. It's probably closer to 1500! 45%! Nearly 1 in 2! Got the picture yet?

I, and guys like me, contributed to keep this company healthy because of that attrition. We invested the blood, sweat and years!!! And we didn't do it so you on the West could come in here and 'steal our future' just because some misguided arbitrator said so. Look, I don't believe the West should have to pay for, nor be penalized for what we've been through here on the East. However, you shouldn't be rewarded or benefit from it either. That is exactly what has happened with Nicolau having given no regard for LOS and not providing protection for our attrition.

Consider this. A friend of mine was hired on the East 11 years after myself and was 1070 numbers junior to me. He was furloughed and subsequently hired at America West. He is now 600 senior to me on the NIC (and 1800 numbers senior to himself, LOL)? Aprox. 325 west guys are senior to me by date of hire. I could understand 700, or maybe even 900 going ahead of me given the despairities between our two groups. However, having ALL but 50 West pilots go ahead of me is ludicrous. I was hired young. I have 22 years in and about 20 to go. I would have retired in the top 25 but will now top out at #700 at best under NIC. Like I said in a previous post, a good arbitration would have struck a balance. Nicolau failed! He failed you, me, the company, and ALPA. BTW, have you seen ALPA's merger policy lately.....as it pertains to seniority integration?

As for your subsequent post (#797)....I'm a junior FO now, and no, I don't want a meager pay raise. I've taken a 50% cut through downgrades and concessions. That means a 100% raise to get me back to my 2000, 2001 wages (that's a decade ago! Have you been here a decade yet?). Hell, even with my wife now working, combined, we still have not grossed more than I made alone in 2001. So, I have adjusted......and a meager 20% raise with a smaller minimum fleet, more shrinkage, and NIC do not interest me. You're right about one thing. The amount of pay we can extract from the company in this economy is limited. And quite frankly....it ain't comin'! But attrition is! And yes, so long as we are separate IT IS OURS!

Hey, here's an idea. Give old "Save Dave" Odell a call. Tell him we'll give him 12 yr (top of scale) FO pay right now..... but he'll NEVER check out. Think he'll go for that? Yeah, I didn't think so! VNIIMN!
[/quote


Thank you for taking the time to write this post. It may not make a single bit of diff. with these guys but you are absolutely right. Again, thank you.

 

[flypg]

Agreed. We recyle same-old-stuff because until the 9th speaks, there's not really any news. Except for the latest DC escapades. Talk about airing your dirty laundry in public! The upcoming battle on that should generate a lot of West and East-ALPA-file doom and gloom about the end of USAPA. Latest heard on the grapevine is DC will bring up charges against MC and maybe TP. Those should be heard by the appeals board. The usual high crimes and misdomeaners, I expect. There's some nasty charges from what I hear. That will all shake out in public, distracting us and giving the West non-members more fuel to trash USAPA. Meanwhile, LAS dies in three weeks and the only sign of West sanity, notwithstanding his starting AOL, Eric Ferguson, will be just another line holder. West doesn't have near the MIGs to get another BPR member. They're still short a couple hundred. DC Vs MC will prove another distraction, but won't change the resolve or overall direction. USAPA is not a cult of personality.

I want a new contract, but I can't see voting for one if it costs me money over the rest of my career. This Kirby offer does exactly that. Best case, a pittance pay raise, because even with a loss of 20 airframes, I'm bounced to smaller equipment. Lose 40, I'm close to reserve, lose all 70, which could happen, and I'm close to downgrade. I say this because a TA presented for a vote tomorrow, will have to include the NIC. That's my opinion. Maybe not so in a few months, but right now, a TA must have the NIC in it. I don't see how the company can agree to anything without the NIC in it - right now. That's all speculation, because right now, there aren't the BPR votes to pass a NICed-up TA to be sent out for a vote. Nicolau can't force a vote, neither can AOL, Wake, the NMB or the company.

No matter where you side on the "Great Cleary Debate" (or is that "The Cleary The Great Debate"), it's not going to tear apart the union. We've all been here too long, invested too much time and lost too much money to roll over and de-certify or let ALPA back. That won't happen. I think anyone who suggests East resolve is deteriorating doesn't get it. All in all, our strength comes from the membership pushing the BPRs. The officers are servants. But as opposed to ALPA, where the Reps could elect and remove the officers, here at USAPA, only the MIGs can remove. It's a better system.

Speaking of Al Gore. Coldest Orange Bowl in history, coldest winter in China in 50 years. Coldest summer in Peru on record. Too many polar bears, not enough garbage dumps in Nome. This winter is one kind of global warming I can do without.

Hammer away at me if you must, Tiger, Nic4us, Cleardirect, and all you East ALPA-philes. I don't think I've posted anything that is all that controversial, but maybe I posted a couple things in paragraph 1 you weren't aware of. It seems like for us, there still some old scores to settle. Circular firing squad. Anyway, off on another international conquest of the Atlantic. TTFN!

When I am done buying drinks for EastUs, yours are on me. Thanks for posting. That was good, damn good.

 

[nycbusdriver]

"Seriously, these guys address themselves as Senior International Widebvody Captain...."



Hmmm....the closest thing I can find to that's oscarjazz's "I am a 1988 hire and am an international captain...."

Well, he's certainly not "addressing" himself that way. He's stating a fact which, I assume, is true.

Now I, on the other hand, always look in the mirror every morning and address myself as "Senior International Widebody Captain ..." But I never do it on the message boards.

 

[End of USAPA]

There are a lot of personal stories which make up the pilots east of the Missisippi. I have flown with so many good people with deep, religous values. We aren't who the west makes us out to be. We live by the law, we are curteos to our peers, well educated professionals that are looking out for the best interests of everybody. Date of hire is something we can all hang our hat on- pure and simpple. Imagine how the midwest pilots would be doing with a DOH integration into republic? See how well it works! We need to put the emotions aside and let the cool heads prevail.

Grab a blanket and enjoy the cold.

 

[EastUS]

Well, he's certainly not "addressing" himself that way. He's stating a fact which, I assume, is true.

Now I, on the other hand, always look in the mirror every morning and address myself as "Senior International Widebody Captain ..." But I never do it on the message boards.

Oh..heck...Allright Allright already!...sigh....that was admittedly, some degree of a fishing cast/cheap shot on my part.

As for mirrors and usage of the term "widebody" though?....I will respectfully refuse to ever employ that, especially since "fightin' weight" for me was at least 18 pounds ago..and hasn't gotten any better lately

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, please can you play nice ?

You mean toe the East line? I just call them as I see them - I guess that's not "nice" is the view of some...

You are retired, please dont be bitter. BTW, you are so much more objective when you leave that out.

Seems to be a common East problem...claiming that any disagreement with an East position must be due to some ulterior motive or personal fault. Puts me in pretty good company - a respected arbitrator, a learned Federal Judge, a jury of average Americans...

I guess that pretending the East has a monopoly on Truth, Justice, and the American Way makes it easier for you to rationalize your actions.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

EastUs !....I do love you man ! You MUST let me buy you your favorite beverage.

Most kind of you good sir. Perhaps we'll have an opportunity for that sometime.

 

[EastUS]

You mean toe the East line? I just call them as I see them - I guess that's not "nice" is the view of some...



Seems to be a common East problem...claiming that any disagreement with an East position must be due to some ulterior motive or personal fault. Puts me in pretty good company - a respected arbitrator, a learned Federal Judge, a jury of average Americans...

I guess that pretending the East has a monopoly on Truth, Justice, and the American Way makes it easier for you to rationalize your actions.

Jim

Actually...for myself at least; It's an evidently troublesome-for-some issue of simply not selling out my personal values and comrades for some bizarre notions of "relative" anything. If, to some, the concept of refusing to place people who were grade school children, when their coworkers, people they've flown with for many years, commenced their flying careers, as "senior" to said coworkers seems somehow "unjust"..well...what can be said here? Mea culpa I guess..I'm fully guilty on that score ...and most thankfully so. I'm not sure if that "puts me in pretty good company", without the blessings of some "respected arbitrator, a learned federal judge" and/or say, the first OJ jury/Wake's Circus/the American Idol judges' panel/etc...but..I'll always be able to look those I fly with straight in the eye and have no reason not to......

I'll leave any/all others to creative imaginings of their own as to holding some "monopoly on Truth, Justice and the American Way"......