Talk about ignorance........
US Pilot Labor Thread 10/5 to 10/12 KEEP ON TOPIC
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Talk about ignorance........
Given that poster's perspective? = A neverending source of amusement.......
As are you, oh pompous one!
cubfan
I agree that east furloughs had expectations. I was using another posters twisted logic to illustrate that one side should not be allowed to determine the expectation of the other because of personnal bias in the situation. However, I will say that I think that a furlough who expects to leapfrog 80 percent of a working pilot group of the aquiring company is being completely unreasonable, regardless of their DOH or LOS. So to answere your question on my opinion of LOS, the bottom line is no. Each case turns on its own merit, and while LOS should be considered and possibly weighted more than it was in the Nic decision, there cannot be a simple single factor determining seniority when dealing with two completely disparate groups. DOH,LOS, seat,equiptment,income,furlough time, future expectations,work rules,benefits etc. you have more of some I have more of the others. They should all be factors considered to determine how a combined seniority list is constructed.
I agree that east furloughs had expectations. I was using another posters twisted logic to illustrate that one side should not be allowed to determine the expectation of the other because of personnal bias in the situation. However, I will say that I think that a furlough who expects to leapfrog 80 percent of a working pilot group of the aquiring company is being completely unreasonable, regardless of their DOH or LOS. So to answere your question on my opinion of LOS, the bottom line is no. Each case turns on its own merit, and while LOS should be considered and possibly weighted more than it was in the Nic decision, there cannot be a simple single factor determining seniority when dealing with two completely disparate groups. DOH,LOS, seat,equiptment,income,furlough time, future expectations,work rules,benefits etc. you have more of some I have more of the others. They should all be factors considered to determine how a combined seniority list is constructed.
Indeed, like the APA "experiment".
Seems your historical knowledge needs a little work.
BoeingBoy
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Or perhaps not....the only similarity between APA replacing ALPA and USAPA replacing ALPA is that ALPA was replaced as the CBA. Pretty much everything else about the two cases is different - APA wasn't formed during a merger, it wasn't formed to negate a merger related seniority integration arbitration, etc.
So in almost all respects except one, USAPA is indeed a first.
Jim
I'm not sure on the voluntary part, I think that if the majority vote in favor of COBRA assessment it could be enforced, unless your talking about the fact that some are in and some are not, but putting all politics aside, I would hope EVERYONE would put their differences aside and come to the AIDE of all furloughed.
Sir Lurk-A-Lot
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Should I ask the IACP or FPA about their "experiment"?
N924PS
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Perhaps a history refresher would be in order for you as well Snark.
I suggest reading Chapters 21 and 22 of "Flying the Line" by George E. Hopkins. He devotes these two chapters to the rather complex set of circumstances that spawned APA, crew complement being the "final brick in the wall."
In contrast, USAPA was founded on the single issue of the Nicolau Award.
It remains to be seen how the USAPA experiment proceeds. Perhaps it too will be around for 45 years as the CBA for all USAirways Pilots and the experiment will be an unqualified success.
NiceLandingCaptain
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Piedmont1984
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There was a strong anti ALPA undercurrent on this property before the Nic award. It simply lacked the critical mass which the award provided.
APA was the first legacy pilot group to break away from ALPA, was it not? As I recall, one of the central issues was the two man crew. No less self serving than USAPA protecting it's own.
E
EastUS
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So very true sir. I can well recall the era after the "Great Pension Give Away"....It took some long time for wholesale disbelief to subside, and to at all even accept the sheer, numbing shock at such an unimaginable magnitude of cowardly Alpoid treachery..and have it truly sink in...but; It wouldn't have been difficult at times, to gather up whatever "villagers" were in sight at any given spot, to take up torches and pitchforks.... That "It was all about Nic" is common boilerplate only suitable for the most devout, and utterly blind Alpoids.....who feel some perverse need to "defend" their and Alpa's utter failures
nostradamus
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Updates are always informative.
Leonidas Update for October 5, 2008
First item: Both the company and "our" union from the recesses of North Carolina filed their respective motions to dismiss this week. Both motions seek to challenge the jurisdiction that the Federal District court has over the subject matter and both attempt to dismiss our preliminary injunction request on those grounds. You might be wondering how it is possible that the trial court at the federal level would not have jurisdiction, and the answer lies in how the Founding Fathers wrote our Constitution. Article I set up the Legislative Branch, Article II set up the Executive Branch, and Article III set up a federal court system. The only court expressly created in the Constitution is the Supreme Court of the United States. However, Congress was given the power to create "inferior courts," which is how our federal appellate courts and our district courts came into existence. Congress was also given the power to delineate the jurisdictional limits for all federal courts (even the Supreme Court), subject to certain limitations not applicable to our discussion. Whether our case belongs in the federal district court therefore starts with legislation enacted by Congress which we know all of you have heard of: the Railway Labor Act. Under the RLA, federal courts are mostly divested of jurisdiction over controversies involving labor disputes until an administrative process is complete.
Not surprisingly, the company, and the union which represents a faction of East pilots are both arguing that we have not exhausted our administrative remedies. What neither motion mentions is that exceptions do exist that enable parties in our exact position to go straight to federal court. We would not expect either of the opposing parties to argue our position for us, so it is no surprise that both motions were silent as to the Ninth Circuit and Supreme Court case law that closely fit our circumstances. We find it curious that the union, which is supposedly trying to prevent the West furloughs through the grievance process, so adamantly opposes our injunction request designed to do the same.
Our response is in the final revision stages and will be filed by the end of this week. Although we will not say anything more about our arguments until the response is filed, we would like to state that your legal team anticipated the arguments set forth in both motions to dismiss “ neither the union, nor the company presented us with any surprises. Following our response, each opposing party will have until October 17th to file briefs that respond to our response. After that, Judge Wake will either rule based upon the briefs submitted, or rule after hearing oral arguments from all parties which is tentatively scheduled for October 29th.
Second item: True to form and always consistent, USAPA spent yet another week on "Fantasy Island," this time sending Mr. Roark a date-of-hire seniority list on the eve of the out-of-seniority furloughs on the West. Only in USAPA-land could such a twisted act be celebrated and spun as a milestone accomplishment. Never mind that the furloughs are taking place out of order (no matter which method you prefer), and never mind that our union said nothing about management's non-compliance with the Transition Agreement. To top off yet another week of delusion, USAPA Grievance Committee Chairperson, Tracy Parella, sent out a special update blasting management for what USAPA says is an improper application of contractual rates of pay to the former MDA pilots. Wow. What fight. Finally, the last scene on "Fantasy Island," starred the USAPA Negotiating Advisory Committee when it published it's "Pay Proposal" to the company. Had the 'Coast to Coast' unity campaign taken hold and had true leverage been exerted on our management team, these rates may have been within our grasp, but thanks to the USAPA experiment and the choice of its voters to seek no other goal than to disavow their obligations to the West (and the very principles of integrity and honor), these rates border on comical and delusional. Simply put, we wish this were not the case. One can only imagine how difficult it is going to be for many frustrated and misguided East pilots when the reality of Nicolau and parity deliver their one-two punch.
Later this week, we will begin publishing a running total of just how much this USAPA experiment (and all that preceded it), has actually cost our pilot group. We will further illustrate just how much damage the USAPA founders have done to our industry, our finances, and our families. Suffice it to say that the numbers are breathtaking, and though expensive on both sides of the Mississippi, the damages are far greater on the East. It must also be noted that what we have lost, management has gained. It is funny how the old East MEC and the USAPA founders all claimed that the West had "won the lottery" with the Nicolau award. If that were the case, then management must feel like they hit the biggest "Power Ball" jackpot ever, thanks to FO Bradford and USAPA.
Say hello to "Tattoo" for us when you leave the island folks.
On different note, Leonidas LLC has recently become aware of a new website named, "The Eye on USAPA." It's web address is www.usapawatch.com. We will state unequivocally that there is no association, either direct or implied, between the "Eye" and Leonidas. Although this probably won't stop those who have a long history of making their own reality and then acting upon it, our statement of "no association" is for the benefit of the rest of the world not residing on 'fantasy island'. That being said, we at Leonidas certainly appreciate the efforts of others to shine the light of truth. "Eye" is a website well worth visiting. The problem for USAPA is that truth has a way of popping up everywhere.
Lastly, many of you have asked if we will honor your donations to AWAPPA in support of this legal campaign by providing the corresponding badge backer in appreciation. We do plan to do this once we have received the promised funding and accounting of your donations from AWAPPA, though at present, we do not know when that will occur. We appreciate your patience in this matter and will advise you when those transfers take place.
Thanks again for everyone's financial, intellectual and moral support.
Leonidas LLC
N924PS
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I wouldn't characterize several hundred East pilots walking an informational picket line wearing Blue ALPA lanyards as a strong undercurrent against ALPA. This happened in PHX, PHL, CLT and DCA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJFkFg_7vo8
This in fact, happened several times in the year preceding the Nicolau Award. Pilots were proudly displaying their ALPA service pins and wearing the ALPA lanyards until the Nic was released.
Opportunistic USAPA "Key Men" were able to use the disdain for the individuals involved in the loss of the pension and transfer that into a frenzy against ALPA itself. ALPA used some of these same individuals as spokesmen for keeping ALPA. Something akin to throwing lighter fluid on a lit barbeque and actually helped USAPA's cause and adding to the "critical mass."
It's too early to answer this question, but a year or two down the road: Are we better off today with USAPA?
E
EastUS
Guest
"..by providing the corresponding badge backer in appreciation." Oooh!..Oooh!..Mommy!!?? Can I get one of those too?...if I send batch lots of money?..Or do I just need to check a few Crackerjack boxes? Wowee!" Sigh...Words just fail me. Umm..any chance that the westies own Manhattan Island?..I've got at least 26 bucks wortha' beads I can trade
"..once we have received the promised funding and accounting of your donations from AWAPPA, though at present, we do not know when that will occur."
Well...at least they're all one big, happy family out there..and are all working off the same page
"We appreciate your patience in this matter.....Thanks again for everyone's financial..."
E
EastUS
Guest
Nonsense sir. I was/am hardly any "key" man..and I had MANY conversations with a collective and virtual host of folks, over the course of many flights, that would also have cheerfully placed a bounty on Alpoids...See..here's the thing = If someone steals your wallet..It's merely a nuisance. When someone steals your future/pension/etc...It can actually get on people's last nerves...amazingly enough.
Whatever host of attempted colorations might ever be tried..Alpa just plain failed at every level possible....period.
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