US Pilot Labor Thread 10/5 to 10/12 KEEP ON TOPIC

[machtuck]

AAA was liquidating.

Next time you decide to speak, check the facts before repeating lies.

You were saying?

 

[ussnark]

Nice try - the poster was referring to AWA vs AAA pilots, and flying within their respective companies - period.

Can't you folks pay attention?

Indeed. Paying attention to oneself is something you might consider working on.

Was it not you who posted that Parker took two companies and remade them into one, a new company
and that all prior "experience" should be disregarded, a la relative "seniority"? Would that not put "we operated 747s" ad nauseum and "respective companies" into the "old news" department?

 

[cubfan]

machtuck

My logic is simple. You argue that AWE had no widebodies on property to bring to the merger, therefore there was no expectation. The same logic would dictate that east furloughs were not on property and would also have no expectation. A DOH list puts 250 furloughed in front of a 20 year continuously employed 10 years as captain west pilot, 450 furloughs in front of a 12 year continously employed with more LOS and 8 years as captain west pilot, and all furloughs in front of Dave O'Dell who was on property at the merger but is now furloughed while new hires and those who were not here at the merger are still working.

Sure lets talk post-merger expectations. Mine were simple, any pilot in a position junior to mine will stay in a position junior to mine for the duration of my career. Those in a position senior to mine will be offered opportunities before they are offered to me. I just cannot figure how you reason a furlough with less LOS is indeed a position senior to mine.

what flies in the face of union-based principals is your illegaly elected association and thier determination to steal jobs from fellow pilots.

nic4us
based on your logic east furloughed had no expectations may not be correct. I feel most east employees had expectations based on their agreement to the drastic cuts. US though not in the best of shape had value, if they had no value then the investment community would have let it fail. Alot of the furloughes happened because of the agreements to allow more RJ's. Those agreed cuts along with the large attrition US had prior to age 65, gave I feel most pilots expectations of return. Those cuts added to the value of the company, there for the investment community moved ahead with the investment dollars. With their investment US survived and made alot of profits or them. Also based on your comment with regard to LOS, would it be safe to say that one with more LOS, be indeed a position senior to you.

 

[cubfan]

eastus,

Very consistent thinking here. I have not waivered from my mindset. Had a third party nuetral determined that DOH was fair, I could have lived with that, and was prepared to do so. However, as I stated twice before, but you left this part out of your quote, I will not accept a onesided determination from USAPA as to what is fair, regardless of its content. I said this before we got to see the conditions and restrictions which are laughable.

LOS has always mattered, and was addressed in the Nic, most notably by the one dessenting opinion of the pilot nuetral who thought that those already recalled should be given something more. Nicolau and the other pilot nuetral rebutted that this actually supported the west argument further, and therefore was not needed.

As to furloughs from pre-merger left to factor in, I am not saying those who turned down recall will come back now. However, what is up with the 9 east pilots recalled to the west, with pilots senior to them are being furloughed, being given the opportunity to go back east, in direct conflict of the Transition agreement. What is up with new hires continuing their employment while those senior to them are furloughed. The only answere we are getting from USAPA is well its okay because by next april all the new hires will be gone. Well it is not okay with me.

I do agree with you on the fact that no west pilot be furloughed before all new hires. I do believe USAPA feels this way also, and has filed a grievence. The problem is the powers to be don't see it this way which is WRONG. The company needs to eat a few months of pay and beneits until all are furloughed in proper order. Furloughes are horrible, and I will favor an assesment to pay for med insurance for all no matter if all furloughed were all on the east or west, doesn't matter.

 

[EastUS]

I do agree with you on the fact that no west pilot be furloughed before all new hires. I do believe USAPA feels this way also, and has filed a grievence.

Greivances have been filed seeking the stoppage of any/all furloughs at present, based on scope abuses and reasonable issues that clearly show company abuse of the pilot group. The union's position? = Fight the company on this abuse, which is both reasonable and proper. The west's utterly insane "position"? = Fight the union at every turn, and on every possible level......and just loudly and enthusiastically whine away incessantly. After all, wouldn't the whole world be a perfect place if they'd just gotten their St Nic gift, and it was exclusively only the east people ever getting trashed and trampled on? Personally..I'm finally just pretty much past having any actual sympathy, or any remaining patience with this little west group's self-obsessed and self-destructive lunacy....period.

 

[cleardirect]

Except for the fact that Parker, your own CEO, made that assertion.

At the time, Parker was not the CEO of USAir and would not have known whether US was "on the edge" or not, a condition I assert is even questionable in his personal life.

You need better logic.

You obviously know nothing about merger and acquisitions. The acquiring entity has a fiduciary responsibility to look at the books and understand the financial situation before purchase. So Parker completely understood the books at US Airways.

My logic is fine.

 

[Freighterguynow]

That does not mean that we should ignore the "potential" that may exist in the future. Rumor has it that the NMB will soon begin investigating usap and will seriously question its inability to represent equally all the pilots it is supposed to be representing. Do I sense a receivership in our futures?

From the NMB website:

44. Q: What if I am already represented, and I am unhappy with the organization?

A: The RLA does not address relationships between employees and their unions, including the payment or amount of union dues, or the representation you receive from the union in negotiations or grievances.

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/faqs-ola.html

Nice try though ...

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Indeed. Paying attention to oneself is something you might consider working on.

Was it not you who posted that Parker took two companies and remade them into one, a new company
and that all prior "experience" should be disregarded, a la relative "seniority"? Would that not put "we operated 747s" ad nauseum and "respective companies" into the "old news" department?

In a word: Nope.

And now the readers can understand why I write: P a y A t t e n t i o n ! !

Meanwhile, it seems many of the east continue to be fond of thier distortions and literary inventiveness.

They have to do this in order to give their DOH "logic" any chance of carrying even the tiniest bit of credence.

On another note, it is a real eye opener to hear what nearly all OAL pilots have to say about the east group of pilots and how they have treated the west. Most of it cannot be reprinted here.

Additionally, on a recent trip which was observed by an FAA inspector, some of the observations shared were shocking, to say the least. The inspector was very concerned that the tone he has observed on east flight decks was marginal at best. His feeling was that the lack of CRM he saw can become downright dangerous.

Could it be that usap's lack of progress/movement/anything has driven a wedge between various factions of eastyz? (angry F/O club comes to mind here)

All I can say is this: all of us, east and west, need to ensure our priorities are straight when we settle into those front window seats. Not only is that what we are getting paid for, but there are eyes watching - closely.

 

[cubfan]

In a word: Nope.

And now the readers can understand why I write: P a y A t t e n t i o n ! !

Meanwhile, it seems many of the east continue to be fond of thier distortions and literary inventiveness.

They have to do this in order to give their DOH "logic" any chance of carrying even the tiniest bit of credence.

On another note, it is a real eye opener to hear what nearly all OAL pilots have to say about the east group of pilots and how they have treated the west. Most of it cannot be reprinted here.

Additionally, on a recent trip which was observed by an FAA inspector, some of the observations shared were shocking, to say the least. The inspector was very concerned that the tone he has observed on east flight decks was marginal at best. His feeling was that the lack of CRM he saw can become downright dangerous.

Could it be that usap's lack of progress/movement/anything has driven a wedge between various factions of eastyz? (angry F/O club comes to mind here)

All I can say is this: all of us, east and west, need to ensure our priorities are straight when we settle into those front window seats. Not only is that what we are getting paid for, but there are eyes watching - closely.

no wedge, agree on keeping priorties straight, the west may have an angry f/o club as well

 

[EastUS]

You obviously know nothing about merger and acquisitions. The acquiring entity has a fiduciary responsibility to look at the books and understand the financial situation before purchase. So Parker completely understood the books at US Airways.

My logic is fine.

Yes, yes, yes indeed. We all "know" that AWA was a mighty powerhouse of itself, clearly destined for global dominance, and that everyone personally "owes you" perhaps even their very lives and certainly, at the very least, all their years worked and effort spent, so that you can have all things good in life at the expense of others who have worked far longer than you. Grow up already. Mr. Parker's numerous statements attendant to the fragility and/or at least guaranteed shrinkage of AWA will be completely and conveniently disregarded in any case, and it's truly a fool's errand to fight over any/all "what if's"......

All the endless variations on the "We saved you" theme are nothing more than self-serving, adolescant BS, suitable for the amusement of at best a teenaged audience, and have no bearing whatsoever on any proceedings within any aspects of reality. Whatever the manifestly absurd fantasies are: No AWA pilot personally did ANYTHING to "save" anyone at USAir......

 

[EastUS]

All I can say is this: all of us, east and west, need to ensure our priorities are straight when we settle into those front window seats. Not only is that what we are getting paid for, but there are eyes watching - closely.

(Deleted by moderator.)


Moderator note: Enough already. You all know the rules. Some posters are already in the cornfield. Personal attacks earn you a free ticket to join them.

 

[ussnark]

You obviously know nothing about merger and acquisitions. The acquiring entity has a fiduciary responsibility to look at the books and understand the financial situation before purchase. So Parker completely understood the books at US Airways.

My logic is fine.

It might be "fine" if HP did, indeed, "acquire" US. To bad, that did not happen. Moving the accounting department to Tempe Tourist town does not imply anything, unless you are living in a fantasy world.

All you have to do is to look at the Bank of America acquisition of Countrywide to see that "looking at the books" has many interpretations on all sides. Not only are there more than one set of books, but, among other things, what the buyer sees may not be what the seller sees. It seems, after the deal was consumated, a little buyer hesitation implied b of a missed the coyote ugly part of the relationship when they "looked at the books".

The naive amongst you are so much fun to watch as you pontificate yourselves in your ignorance.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

From the NMB website:

44. Q: What if I am already represented, and I am unhappy with the organization?

A: The RLA does not address relationships between employees and their unions, including the payment or amount of union dues, or the representation you receive from the union in negotiations or grievances.

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/faqs-ola.html

Nice try though ...

Kudos for your research - and your cut and paste skills. Agreed it is not logical for a government agency to turn on an incestuous group of union members after allowing for its illegitimate creation in the first place.

However, the scale and depth of the east usap tyranny are becoming more and more apparent each day. The complaints are piling up. It has become obvious to all that the east is only interested in one thing - much to the detriment of the west. And that one thing is itself.

The complete usap experiment is unprecedented in this industry. Its existence has established a dangerous and unjust standard. Expect an exception to be made -

 

[nic4us]

cubfan

I too think furloughs are horrible, and have said that I would be onboard with an assessment to pay furloughs COBRA payments. However, it was pointed out to me that it would have to be voluntary on my part because USAPA would not be able to enforce collection. So let me rephrase, I would voluntarily pay into an assessment to cover the cost of furloughs COBRA payments to ensure all US airways furloughed pilots have medical coverage.

You are correct, carrying extra pilots until you can furlough bottom up would have been the easiest way to avoid the current animosity. The injunction or possibly the grievance to be heard in January may right this somewhat but it is probably little comfort to those who went out last week or are scheduled to go 11-01.

 

[EastUS]

INTEGRITY MATTERS

Given that poster's perspective? = A neverending source of amusement.......