US Pilot Labor Thread 10/27-11/2

[Megasnoop]

Angry? No. Supremely disappointed, yes. It is a shame that the AWA pilots have to now go through the State and US Courts to force USAPA and the company to comply with the TA and force USAPA to comply with the Nicolau Award.

cactusboy, sounds like your angry to me. We note the irony. We had to go to court to keep you from sabotaging our duly elected union. It worked. The sabotage stopped and as long as we hold it over your head, it keeps you from doing it again.
your in court over what even you claim is a TA violation. TA and contract violations are covered through arbitration. Not sure what USAPA can do about the company furlough list, but go for it. Sue away. But a DFR? How can you sue us for duty to fair representation when you refuse to be represented?

The USAPA association and those that support it have caused irreparable harm to the America West Pilot group, especially to those pilots that had jobs at AWA prior to the acquisition of US Air. We will not lay down. We will not give up. When this is determined under court proceedings, all parties will have to comply with the judge's decisions.

More west hyperbole, cactusboy. If its irreparable, then why waste your money in court? And how many did USAPA furlough? Zero. the company did the furloughing, USAPAs trying to reverse it through 2 TA disputes. If we win, everyone hired prior to the merger announcement will be back at work. In court the companys going to argue the jurisdiction belongs with the NMB, not the courts. What your lawsuit does is force us to align with the company.
Going after USAPA now? Not a well thought strategy. Your not going to get too many bites at the apple before the courts just dismiss you out of hand. snuper.

 

[tazz]

No takers, I guess. Well, I was just wondering since I've been a lurker for awhile. I can pretty much tell who is west here. All I can say from an outsiders viewpoint is that your legal battlecry has a very shakey foundation.

Non-members suing for DFR in a union they don't belong to?

Pilots suing the company for not negotiating in good faith? (try proving that one)

And (unbelievably) suing all East pilots in a class action to uphold the Nicolau as individuals? Are you serious?

Not taking sides here, but these positions are insane, if true.

If you have been a lurker here for a while then you would have seen facts, with copied documentation, presented. If you really did read the Nicolau documentation then you would understand that each merger does have a unique set of circumstances and if you did read the legal papers you would see that the law suits presented are not simple DFR and should certainly understand they have nothing to do with the company negotiating in good faith. My guess is that you have read none of the pertinent documentation and little of what's been posted for the past year. If you honestly did I would recommend taking a reading comprehension course at your local community college. And..... I'll save you the trouble, I am a west guy.

 

[tazz]

ohh...intimidating. "Jim" maybe a an outdoor hobby? a fling? a boat? a hike?

Alas, you may "respond at will, your highness..."

Falling on deaf ears, it serves no purpose.

I'll bet this guy is eastus just pretending to be someone else. Sounds like him playing dumb.

 

[nostradamus]

What's inexcusable is to confuse longevity with seniority.

What's inexcusable is to make a reserve East First Officer senior to a West blockholding Captain.

What's inexcusable is to furlough the majority of the West before the first East pilot.

There are laws in this country to prevent the majority from stealing jobs from the minority in a union.

Interesting post below by you traderjake.

Posted on: Jan 22 2003, 04:53 PM
Senior
****
Group: Registered Member
Posts: 363
Joined: 30-August 02
Member No.: 726

I'M NOT GOING ON STRIKE AND LOSE 15 YEARS OF INCOME JUST BECAUSE THE OLD GUYS WHO NEGOTIATED THE "B SCALE" FOR ME ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THEIR RETIREMENT. I DON'T CARE WHAT ALPA SAYS, I'll BE HAPPY TO TAKE THEIR SENIORITY NUMBER.

 

[des nudo]

Wow...tazz, thats as stunning as the 2 foot tape-worm I pulled last summer.
Life is certainly interesting out here.

Yes, I've read the tablets you mention...same result.

Silly waste of lots of money.

Set me straight, though

 

[tazz]

"...he gazed into the mirror, and found therefore, his audience..."

You can talk all you want, you may categorically insult me as you desire, but it is you who is alone at the keyboard in the twilight of your life....enjoy.

Your pompous attitude is detestible.

I'll speak no more of you...back to the issues at hand...superfluous lawsuits, and all.

You insult a retired pilot who presents reasonable arguments. That is detestible. You ask for help in understanding when all of the material you need is within easy reach. You appear to have made up your mind while not knowing the facts - that is pompous.

After tomorrow we'll see whether the lawsuits are superfluous...

 

[tazz]

Wow...tazz, thats as stunning as the 2 foot tape-worm I pulled last summer.
Life is certainly interesting out here.

Yes, I've read the tablets you mention...same result.

Silly waste of lots of money.

Set me straight, though

I won't be setting you straight. Not worth the effort.

 

[des nudo]

I have a question, just as an observer.

Who is this George Nicolau that his one "decision" changes the world of airline mergers?

He's a US guy, yes?.....lives in the states?. And he can make a ruling that many of us don't understand, and subsequently screw over any number of International ALPA PILOTS IN A AN IALPA MERGER? ( this is where you all lose us out in the far west)

This is where all you bully's lose me. I dont care, you don't affect me, and sound stupid unless you quote any applicable labor law.

 

[des nudo]

You insult a retired pilot who presents reasonable arguments. That is detestible. You ask for help in understanding when all of the material you need is within easy reach. You appear to have made up your mind while not knowing the facts - that is pompous.

After tomorrow we'll see whether the lawsuits are superfluous...

I see, tazz, thank you. It's the "all-about-me" law....the one that only you can see...

OK

facts? nobody convinced me...only insulted me...to include YOU.


case closed.

i smell opportunistic people all around.


you lose in my part of the world.

 

[des nudo]

You insult a retired pilot who presents reasonable arguments. That is detestible. You ask for help in understanding when all of the material you need is within easy reach. You appear to have made up your mind while not knowing the facts - that is pompous.

After tomorrow we'll see whether the lawsuits are superfluous...

And you have done like wize...what is you say?

quick pro quo?


so stupid your argument now is....I'll spread the word in this hemisphere.

i ask a question, get your Jim answer...then insults....

OK, I get it from west...(lawyer wins...no rules)


yes?

 

[Megasnoop]

What's inexcusable is to confuse longevity with seniority.

yah, I can agree with that. Its the west that cant. They rejected the ALPO LOS compromise at Wye River. If theyd gone for that and got a contract in place, dave odell would have 400 pilots below him. Its never been about furloughs. Its been all about that wide-body left seat.

What's inexcusable is to make a reserve East First Officer senior to a West blockholding Captain.

Huh? Have you read the USAPA DOH C&Rs? Maybe on the list, but the fence keeps an East FO from bidding CA in PHX or LAS unless no West FOs bid it.

There are laws in this country to prevent the majority from stealing jobs from the minority in a union.

Care to name just ONE law? BTW, court cases ARENT laws. There interpretations of laws. But still, name one. snuper

 

[cleardirect]

When a person was hired at a union is the most important proviso where i come from. If there was no unions at the two companies...than i would understand you. As two unions shops...the union RULES on mergers determines seniority.


Why is it different at USAir and ALPA in the US?

The rule of law means nothing to you then only date of hire?

Yes union rules were followed. ALPA has a merger policy. It includes negotiation, mediation than arbitration if needed. All the parties agreed to whatever the arbitrator decided.

The east cried to ALPA national to change the award after the fact. The executive board looked at all of the facts and determined that the RULES were followed.

If merger policy said that all mergers were straight DOH. Those would be the rules. If merger policy said all mergers would be relative, again the rules would be followed. ALPA merger policy is does not set a standard method. Because each merger is different.

Just how does this merger “screw over IALPA pilots? Both sides made their arguments to the arbitrator. He told the east that they were not going to get DOH. Yet they maintained their hard line position. This award is very similar to the Trump award. Also a US Air merger arbitrated by George Nicolau.

The lesson learned from this merger is that the TA must be written very tight. Both sides must live up to their agreements. As Nicolau said each merger turns on it own facts. Just because this merger went relative seniority. Does not mean that the next will use the same method.

Is there any other airline in the world with 17 year pilots on furlough and in bankruptcy for the second time in two years? That is what we were dealing with. Different airlines different set of facts different outcome.

 

[des nudo]

The rule of law means nothing to you then only date of hire?


And this is where we part ways.

When two parties "sign off" on an arbiter...they logically assume said arbiter is going to follow the "preset rules"....yes?

Unfortunately for ALPA, they have no such describable rules,so nothing to "follow"...aye?

he did what he did.....and the community as a whole is stunned.


Enough said.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Seems to be common is some quarters. The old "My mind's made up - don't confuse me with facts" thing...

Must be a terrible burden: Knowing it all.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just that no one has yet come up with a logical argument to change my long-held belief when it comes to this subject.

Jim