US Pilot Labor Thread 10/19-10/26

[InternationalShannon]

great post, nostradamus. now, how will we go about getting fair pay and better work conditions for us pilots?

 

[Edward]

ff:
Folks a friendly reminder this thread is about pilot labor issues & nothing else. Thank you.

 

[Megasnoop]

I cannot vote for the furlough assesment, but will contribute if it passes. However, I would be very disappointed if it does not include west furloughed non-members.
I read a USAPA update saying they were voting on the assesment but have not seen the actual document you are voting for,so I do not know who would be eligible.

Nic4, ALPO wouldnt allow non-member voluntary donations after the 9-11 furloughs. USAPA will take donations from non-members. I doubt if many will even need it. As bad as things are, there are flying jobs for anyone who wants to work. Maybe a regional, but still jobs out there. If you want a flying job, you can find one.

Regarding furloughed non-members, wheres the obligation? All you have to do is join and pay about $300 in owed dues to be in good standing. Those still in first year only need to join. No dues to pay at all. A small price to pay for a COBRA supplement if you really need it. Anyone who puts misplaced pride before family medical coverage, you got to wonder. Snooper

 

[Bus Driver]

>>>I cannot vote for the furlough assesment, but will contribute if it passes. However, I would be very disappointed if it does not include west furloughed non-members.<<<

Group,

pardon for jumping in here, but I have serious disagreement with this.

This furlough insurance benefit is for union members, paid by union members, voted on by union members, etc. It is a union benefit.

If you want the "benefits" of the union, then join the union and participate and stay in good standing.

If you want to argue the point, please chime in with what you think the Steelworkers would do, the Teamsters, any other AFL-CIO affiliated union. Even ALPA had member benefits, such as insurance and other benefits. USAPA is no different. In fact, in the current environment, I would say that USAPA has been restrained in its efforts to collect dues, etc.

There is a voluntary fund that is not "union" member related, I would hope that this fund might pick up the folks who have a need for help. ( I have contributed thousands of dollars to this fund over the past 18 years and have no problem with helping out non-members in need . . . it is "charity")

Other than that, this is a union folks, and union membership has its privaleges, just like other unions and many other organizations.

This isn't charity, this is basic unionism.

Bus driver

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop, you're right, I wasn't at Wye River. Wouldn't have gone if I were still on the MC. My point was that post arbitration was not the time to negotiate. Our side attended only under pressure from alpa national and recognized that the time for negotiation had passed. By the way, no one really knows what was said there as the west contingent, as usual, is honoring an agreement made with the east not to discuss details from that meeting.

With respect, tazz. That wasnt your point at all. your point was no proof LOS was turned down. So since only the leaked truth came out, you claim no proof. “as usual, is honoring an agreement.â€￾ Thats saying something didnt happen because your side is hiding behind the "C" word (confidentiality). One of the problems I had with ALPO was the secrecy they always hid behind. The “proofâ€￾ is in what those who are willing to expose the truth say. Your guys protect themselves by claiming confidentiality. Hiding the truth is so “ALPO.â€￾

Also, I have never taken uturn seriously. It is written by a few stray dogs with an axe to grind. If you knew them I believe that you would feel the same. Referencing their material will get you nowhere with most west pilots.

Maybe so, but was uturns article correct or not about the LOS offer? Seems like they were. Thats the issue, not whether you take them seriously, ax to grind. Didnt they support the NIC?

The merger policy worked as advertised until Prater usurped the process by attempting to negotiate post arbitration. He is a politician, not a leader and thanks to him we are now spending money to defend what he was obligated to defend.

Cant argue with you there, no doubt prater screwed with you. So for the 20th time I ask, why arent you DFRing ALPO? ALPO was more concerned about saving the mother ship than implementing the Nic. They didnt care about us, you or the Nic. We figured it out. You guys were just too naive to realize they were playing both sides against each other. ALPO played with fire and got burned. Good riddance. We found an NMB-legal way to nullify ALPO merger policy and the Nic. Now its in your court (or the Fed courts). Big bux, tazz and years of litigation. By the time its all over, youll have the majority anyway. BTW, the USAPA constitution amendment vote ends the “Susieâ€￾ loophole. Susie will get voted in by the BPR. She then wont pay dues and LCC fires her. Then she can be a stay-at-home mom (I saw her star in the training center parker video). snooper

 

[BoeingBoy]

So for the 20th time I ask, why arent you DFRing ALPO?

Even I can answer that one - it's surprising that you have to ask. There's nothing to sue ALPA for since the proscribed merger process in effect at that time was completed, albeit with some delay.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Nic4, ALPO wouldnt allow non-member voluntary donations after the 9-11 furloughs. USAPA will take donations from non-members. I doubt if many will even need it. As bad as things are, there are flying jobs for anyone who wants to work. Maybe a regional, but still jobs out there. If you want a flying job, you can find one.

Regarding furloughed non-members, wheres the obligation? All you have to do is join and pay about $300 in owed dues to be in good standing. Those still in first year only need to join. No dues to pay at all. A small price to pay for a COBRA supplement if you really need it. Anyone who puts misplaced pride before family medical coverage, you got to wonder. Snooper

Snoop,

Nope. I will post the resolution one more time. The bold part clearly says must be in good standing dues and assessments paid at the time of furlough. So as you suggest just pay your bill. Still will not do it.

The west pilots have no access to these benefits.


AI 08-51 Furlough Pilot Medical Insurance
Henriksson/Britt
WHEREAS In the past the pilot group has approved a ballot be placed before the members to allow for furloughed pilot medical insurance, and
WHEREAS It is in the interest of USAPA to support our furloughed pilots with access to medical insurance, and
WHEREAS This action requires an assessment rather than payment from the general
dues accounts,
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED That the USAPA Board of Pilot representatives will send to the US Airways pilots a ballot concerning making medical insurance available to those member pilots who face furlough that contains the following provisions:
____________________________________________________________________
Ø The assessment shall be $25.00 per month for each member captain and $15.00 per month for each member First Officer, except that an ERJ-190 captain shall pay only $15.00 per month and each ERJ-190 First Officer shall pay $10 per month.

Ø This benefit shall be available to members only. In order to receive this benefit a member must be in good standing with all dues and assessments paid in full when furloughed
Ø This benefit requires that the pilot pay for the insurance and he is then paid from the fund.

Ø The fund is administered by VEBA Associates of Tampa FL.

Ø These costs estimates for the assessments are based on past practice and history.

Ø This program, if enacted, shall continue for 18 months and then must be re-evaluated by the Board of Pilot Representatives as to the continuance of this program.
Motion passes

 

[ableoneable]

http://www.cactuspilot.org/Oral_Argument_Change_102408

Oral arguments regarding jurisdictional issues for the Hybrid DFR against USAPA and the company had been scheduled 1400 on the afternoon of October 29th. On the morning of October 24th, all parties were notified by the court that the hearing will now include arguments pertaining to the "Request for Preliminary Injunction,"￾ in addition to the originally scheduled jurisdictional issues. The court has essentially made the entire day available for the case.

 

[ableoneable]

With respect to the seniority list that USAPA passed to the company; I have no idea if the company "touched" the list or ignored the list, however --

The company has been getting advised on this issue for some time by an outside attorney named Bob Siegel from O'Melveny and Meyers, because the company does not employ any attorneys with a great deal of RLA expertise.

Sources say the company was advised to never move off of the Nicolau Award. --Unless USAPA provides significant concessions and indemnifies the company against litigation. This is due to the fact that counsel believes that the West will likely be awarded monetary damages and this could further drive the stock price down with some very negative media attention.

The West believes that if the company does need a joint contract sooner rather than later, they will keep the Nic but allow USAPA to negotiate fences into Section 24 that would cause it to have the same effect as a DOH list. The company might be better protected against litigation if the Nic were modified outside of the seniority section.

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop, Nope. I will post the resolution one more time. The bold part clearly says must be in good standing dues and assessments paid at the time of furlough. So as you suggest just pay your bill. Still will not do it.

The west pilots have no access to these benefits.

Clear, one more time. I did not say pay your bill, I said pay your dues. Nonmembers pay bills, members pay dues. Now READ it with some understanding:

Regarding furloughed non-members, wheres the obligation? All you have to do is join and pay about $300 in owed dues to be in good standing. Those still in first year just need to join. No dues to pay at all. A small price to pay for a COBRA supplement if you really need it. Anyone who puts misplaced pride before family medical coverage, you got to wonder.

This benefit shall be available to members only. In order to receive this benefit a member must be in good standing with all dues and assessments paid in full when furloughed

Right now, technically, there no westmembers thanks to the susie loophole keeping west pilots from being "members". Thatll be resolved by USAPAs Constitutional change to allow ALL west pilots who applied (even susie) to be voted in as members by the BPR. We have to do it that way since you intimidate anyone out west who wants to represent you.

I talked to my bpr. ALL new pilots who are furloughed will be covered, IF they join. After the susie loophole is closed, ALL members in good standing will be covered. So one more time, if your furloughees place some proud arrogance over common sense to take care of their family, so be it. With all the solidarity you have out there, maybe you can set up your own VEBA helath care program.

If you want more technicality, Clear, right now no East members are covered either. Since its money, the assessment has to pass a vote. Results about the same time as the susie loophole vote. so find another soapbox to slip off. Hangin out with Barak in Hawaii (PS, buy a ticket, non-rev is a bad bet), snooper

 

[Megasnoop]

With respect to the seniority list that USAPA passed to the company; I have no idea if the company "touched" the list or ignored the list, however --

The company has been getting advised on this issue for some time by an outside attorney named Bob Siegel from O'Melveny and Meyers, because the company does not employ any attorneys with a great deal of RLA expertise.

Sources say the company was advised to never move off of the Nicolau Award. --Unless USAPA provides significant concessions and indemnifies the company against litigation. This is due to the fact that counsel believes that the West will likely be awarded monetary damages and this could further drive the stock price down with some very negative media attention.

The West believes that if the company does need a joint contract sooner rather than later, they will keep the Nic but allow USAPA to negotiate fences into Section 24 that would cause it to have the same effect as a DOH list. The company might be better protected against litigation if the Nic were modified outside of the seniority section.

Since Im on a roll tonight, ableon. "Sources" say lots of things as long as they can hide like rats. True or not about the company and legal advice, I wouldnt be too surprized. your comments about fences makes some sense. We make too much out of labels, NIC or DOH. You put enough restrictions on even a staple and it can look like relative seniority and act like DOH. But either way, a pig is still a pig. We think NIC a pig, you think DOH a pig. Were never going to get over it until dave odell retires. If you look at USAPAs restrictions, after these furloughs are over, you've got a lot of similarity to the nic, but with longer wide-body fences. If the company furloughs again, then DOH is an issue, but if they do, wed all be better off updating our resumes than filing lawsuits.

One other thing, after 9-11 I remember doug mckeen and bruce lakefield proposing furloughing by equipment and downgrading into the same equipment to save money on training casts. Total violation of the contract and seniority, but under force majuere, who knows. doug thought he could do it and he did know RLA labor law. Whether legal or not, it started the ball rolling toward loa93. das snuper

 

[Phoenix]

... albeit with some delay.

Do tell. Is that akin to a Monty Python "flesh wound"

 

[Piedmont1984]

Even I can answer that one - it's surprising that you have to ask. There's nothing to sue ALPA for since the proscribed merger process in effect at that time was completed, albeit with some delay.

Jim

I agree with that - it was a proscribed process.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Integrity, indeed, does matter.

The only pilot group in the history of ALPA to collude with management in order to deny fellow ALPA pilots a raise lectures me on "Intgrity". I love that part too.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Anyone care to quote the transition agreement section dealing with new aircraft not identified by tail number. Wasn't there an arbitration over the issue of how new equipment would be divvied up? Something about Westies hold "IOU's" for a portion of that new flying until combined ops allowed them to cash in those "IOU's."

So when the TA is helpful (like separate ops) it's fully in force, but when it's inconvenient (splitting new flying during separate ops) it's thrown out...

Jim

Gotta disagree with you Jim. The TA mentions 757 "growth" and "additional" flying in the same sentence.

If we add 3 new 757's and park 7 for a net loss of 4. I can't see how this provides an opportunity for West advancement of 7 Captains and 7 First Officers while the East loses both the 4 airplanes and the positions awarded the West.