US Pilot labor thread 10/12-10/18

[wopr21]

As an outsider who has followed this thread for some time now(well before the NIC) I have a question that may seem like flamebait but I assure you is genuine.

Minus significant negotiated contractual gains by USAPA, or injunctive legal relief by the West pilot group, do you (pilots of both east and west) see a representational drive to replace USAPA commencing at the 1 year mark (April 09)?

My question is based on the fact that the USAPA victory was by just a few hundred votes (approx 250) and the recent reports that more pilots are "non-members" than "members". This would seem to indicate dissatisfaction by those who originally voted for USAPA.

Additionally, if the answer to the above question is "yes", do you (pilots of both east and west) see a return to ALPA or perhaps another union? (example: The IBT is seeking to replace ALPA at Atlas Air) :unsure:

How bout this. If the non paying dues members would pay dues, then through a majority vote they would dictate the direction of the new union. Instead they protest by not getting involved and keep complaining.

If you don't pay dues don't complain.



Just a thought

wopr

 

[nycbusdriver]

Don't look for ALPA to ever be on this property again UNLESS it happens through a merger. ALPA will NEVER get 50% plus one pilot to send in a request for another election in April, 2010. There is NO upside to ALPA, and I don't miss the $3000/year magazine at all.

USAPA is not in financial problems. The other independent pilot unions function perfectly well at half of what ALPA dues cost for their members. USAPA has continued with taking the ALPA percentage solely to keep the income level up while the "disenchanted" either pay up or leave. Given that, the dues money is still perfectly adequate to maintain a CBA for a pilot group this size.

Once everyone is either on board, paying germane fees or seeking other employment, look for the dues percentage to decrease.

This "senior" pilot is perfectly happy with playing the LOA 93 game for a while longer. Although I voted "no" for it's ratification, when it started I had resigned myself to seeing it well past the amendable date of the east contract (which is December, 2009.) So, I'm not missing anything yet; I am right where I expected to be in October, 2008.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

USAPA was voted in by closer to 500 votes. NMB election reports, click here.

Your "recent reports" statement should be backed up by facts. There have been recent reports of Elvis sightings.

I thought in the context of my post it would be clear I was talking about the number affecting the outcome of the election-approx 250, if that didn't come through clearly my apologies.

As to "recent reports" I was refering to the copy of the LM-2 reports previously posted on this thread, that I haven't yet seen refuted. This was the basis of my question as it clearly shows more "agency-fee" payers than actual members.

 

[traderjake]

How bout this. If the non paying dues members would pay dues, then through a majority vote they would dictate the direction of the new union. Instead they protest by not getting involved and keep complaining.

If you don't pay dues don't complain.

USAPA has rigged the game by not having elected representatives for two years.

They want to ensure that only their hand hardliners have any say during contract negotiations.

A member has no say in what they do.

I'll pay the agency fee when I get a termination letter.

 

[flapsfivetaxi]

USAPA was voted in by closer to 500 votes. NMB election reports, click here.

Your "recent reports" statement should be backed up by facts. There have been recent reports of Elvis sightings.

In fact wasn't usapa only voted in by 103 votes. Usapa received 2723; 5238 eligible voters divided by 2 = 2619 + 1=2620 (50%+1). So if there had been 103 less votes for usapa the us pilots would be non-union, and better off!

 

[nycbusdriver]

In fact wasn't usapa only voted in by 103 votes. Usapa received 2723; 5238 eligible voters divided by 2 = 2619 + 1=2620 (50%+1). So if there had been 103 less votes for usapa the us pilots would be non-union, and better off!

I think you may be confusing for "requesting" a representational election vs. the election itself.

The 50 percent+1 (of the entire eligible group...aprrox 5300) is the number of requests for an election needed by the NMB to actually call that election.

Once an election is held, more than half the group must cast ballots for either union in order for any union to be certified. In this case, virtually all west pilots (1800) and about 400 east pilots voted for ALPA, and about 2700 (virtually all east pilots) voted for USAPA. With a total of 4900 ballots cast, there was no way the group would be non-union, since they passed that mark by about 2250 pilots.

 

[Phoenix]

I think you may be confusing for "requesting" a representational election vs. the election itself.

The 50 percent+1 (of the entire eligible group...aprrox 5300) is the number of requests for an election needed by the NMB to actually call that election.

Once an election is held, more than half the group must cast ballots for either union in order for any union to be certified. In this case, virtually all west pilots (1800) and about 400 east pilots voted for ALPA, and about 2700 (virtually all east pilots) voted for USAPA. With a total of 4900 ballots cast, there was no way the group would be non-union, since they passed that mark by about 2250 pilots.

Wow. ALPA was feeding 400 east pilots with a silver spoon? It was worse than I thought.

 

[nostradamus]

I thought in the context of my post it would be clear I was talking about the number affecting the outcome of the election-approx 250, if that didn't come through clearly my apologies.

As to "recent reports" I was refering to the copy of the LM-2 reports previously posted on this thread, that I haven't yet seen refuted. This was the basis of my question as it clearly shows more "agency-fee" payers than actual members.

The context of your post is in your head and shared by none. To quote you sir,

""My question is based on the fact that the USAPA victory was by just a few hundred votes (approx 250)""

Your "recent report" is conjecture on your part.

It is obvious you are a alpa cheerleader.

Please review the history of your posts, your condescending tone is obvious.

 

[BottomFeeder]

In fact wasn't usapa only voted in by 103 votes. Usapa received 2723; 5238 eligible voters divided by 2 = 2619 + 1=2620 (50%+1). So if there had been 103 less votes for usapa the us pilots would be non-union, and better off!

Wow I thought I have seen and heard it all. Please tell me you don't fly airplanes or fix them.

Change your handle to NiceLandingCaptain

 

[nostradamus]

Wow I thought I have seen and heard it all. Please tell me you don't fly airplanes or fix them.

Change your handle to NiceLandingCaptain

The person does not fly airplanes, they have flight pay loss from alpa.

Flame bait post below, trying to insinuate loss off income. The bait of pay was offered to allow the nic award to sneak through, nice try, alpa shill.

He had the info, but can not find it now, another victim. Do not lose your airplane, please.

flapsfivetaxi post below

Posted on: Aug 25 2008, 07:06 AM

Newbie

Joined: 25-August 08
Member No.: 14,872

Could someone post the payrates the company offered in May of 2007? I had them but have can't find them now.

 

[nostradamus]

USAPA has rigged the game by not having elected representatives for two years.

They want to ensure that only their hand hardliners have any say during contract negotiations.

A member has no say in what they do.

I'll pay the agency fee when I get a termination letter.

The resource of information that you rely on is one sided and flawed. Here is an example of an update that should be considered propaganda;

Leonidas Update for October 12, 2008

Dear former AWA pilots,

It was another busy week for our legal campaign. By October 1st, both the company and USAPA had filed their motions to dismiss our request for preliminary injunction. We had until October 10th to file our response to the USAPA/Company legal team. As most of you are well aware by now, both the company and “our†union are working in concert to defeat the former AWA pilots, and to disavow their legal obligations to us. If we had any remaining expectation that the company and USAPA might choose to make proper decisions of their own free will, and that they might honor their obligations to the AWA pilots accordingly, then those expectations have now been clearly extinguished.

The good news for the AWA pilots is that the law is not based on emotion, or management’s insatiable greed and poor judgment, or even on USAPA’s concept of democracy (their “tyranny of the majorityâ€). Fortunately for us, our laws are based upon intellect, integrity, morality and sound reasoning. Everyone has equal rights (no matter how small the minority to which they belong), and we all have the requirement to follow through with the deals we have struck. To the reasonable and educated person, the reality that we currently face borders on inconceivable. It boggles the mind that our company leadership has chosen to turn away from those who enabled them to acquire the twice-bankrupt US Airways, and then to reward behavior that can only be seen as reprehensible by anyone with a functioning moral compass. Though it is hard to believe, it must also be accepted as reality.

For a thorough review of the legal filings to date, please navigate to the “Current Litigation Documents,†page. It behooves all AWA pilots to know these documents well. We would also like to thank John McIlvenna for taking the time to go our firm’s office and sign an affidavit made necessary because of a grievance he had filed. This item had become one of the central arguments supporting the company and USAPA in their efforts to have our claims dismissed, yet it has served well to illustrate the futility in seeking relief through the System Board in our situation. At the end of the day, it has helped to emphasize the need for federal judicial intervention on behalf of the former AWA pilots.

The USAPA/management coalition will now have until this coming Friday, October 17th, to respond to our latest filings. We can only imagine what the “dynamic duo†of USAPA and the company will come up with next in effort to justify their unjustifiable actions. The AWA pilots should clearly realize by now that we are entirely on our own in this fight, and that our opponents will not willingly afford to us our legal rights- we must demand them through the proper channels. To do that requires patience, integrity, fortitude and financing. Do not fail to carry your own weight and support this effort with more than mere words.

Thanks for your attention.

Leonidas LLC

 

[john john]

The USAPA/management coalition

http://www.capapilots.org/capa_history.asp
Coalition of 22,000 pilots on matters of common interest to the individual member unions.
More straws in the camels back for ALPA

 

[Freighterguynow]

Minus significant negotiated contractual gains by USAPA, or injunctive legal relief by the West pilot group, do you (pilots of both east and west) see a representational drive to replace USAPA commencing at the 1 year mark (April 09)?

NO.

With passage of age 65 the group that voted ALPA out ( and that's what it was, a vote against ALPA not for USAPA) will be largely intact. The top 500 of the seniority list, unaffected by NIC, was the largest push for a change.

All the posts of financial or other turmoil within the ranks is simply propaganda or wishful thinking.

ALPA is gone and won't be back, if ever, for a long long time: at least long enough for many retirements and an influx of younger new hires without an institutional memory.

 

[electricjet98]

The resource of information that you rely on is one sided and flawed. Here is an example of an update that should be considered propaganda;

You know, funny thing about AOL is they actually post the references they use to draw their conclusions and which others can use to draw their own conclusions. I've looked over the USAPA website; no web-board which allows members to question their leadership, updates from the BPR that are days old and from the domiciles that are often more than a month old (is loa 93 really that time consuming?). Most alarming is they have no links to the legal documents that have been filed by AOL, LCC and USAPA. They must believe that the pilot members of USAPA prefer to be treated like mushrooms; kept in the dark and fed a continuous diet of BS.

Apparently and sadly, they are correct.

 

[Tiger 1050]

The east is refusing to think for themselves. It is far more palatable to have USAPA remain with the veil of deception and half truth's. Ya know... Spoon feed me!!!!