US Pilot labor thread 10/12-10/18

[GorgeousGeorge]

So.......if ALPA had 251 of those "500" votes (closer to 470 I believe) then ALPA would have won by 1 vote. Right? That said, then the 250 voter margin mentioned by the previous poster would have barely kept ALPA on property. Do you suppose there are 250+ voters out there with "buyers remorse"?? I'll bet the $60,000 annual loss of the top 517 there is. <_<

There are a lot of people out on LTD that voted ALPA because they bought into the ALPA scare tactics that they might loose their benefit because of a union change. Obviously, they didn't and know those tactics for what they were, utter BS. There are a lot now that actually resent ALPA and the 100 mailings a month for the obvious lies and scare tactics and wouldn't vote ALPA, let alone sign a card to call for an election. There are hundreds that ALPA had a one time chance to scare into voting their way that either won't participate or vote the opposite if their ever was an opportunity in the future, so you might want to figure that into your calculations.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

"I am not now nor have I ever been represented by ALPA. I am not now nor have I ever been a pilot. I am not now nor have I ever been an employee of either AWA or USAirways.

I am an active member of labor."

Thirdseater,
Your handle lends toward the assumption you are a FE.
If not you, would your spouse happen to be an FE. Just guessing at agendas.
FA

fatherabraham the answer to both your questions would be no. As to agendas, as hard as it may be to believe, I don't have one.

A resolution of the Nic award by either East or West carries ramifications for labor beyond the US pilot group. Obviously more so for one resolution over the other but both would have a profound impact none the less. I like many here thought this issue had reached a standoff, with either a negotiated contract including DOH seniority by USAPA, or injunctive legal relief by the West pilot group being the culmination to said standoff. After seeing the LM-2 report and the number of non-members it made me rethink my position. For if indeed the numbers were accurate then a change in representation might be an overlooked possibility.

As before, this was the basis of my question.

 

[Megasnoop]

Father-A,

Waste replying directly to thirdhero. His story doesnt make sense. He should just sign his posts with his ALPO staff #, not a pilot, not working at LCC and yet a union member who cares about all this? Notice hes picked up on the fiction that USAPA has fewer members than non-members, brought up by the Tiger. He wants proof that only the next LM-2 can provide. And hes going to rethink his uniformed "position" based on bogus LM-2 #s?

Tiger,

Out-of-date numbers you now know are bogus dont make debate. Truth does. USAPA doesnt conveniently or inconveniently report anything but the truth to the DOL. Under penalty of law, USAPA reports the facts. Would you want USAPA to lie to the DOL and add the 600 before they were voted in? You lie, DOL comes down hard.

Tiger, you wrote: “This is a false statement as objector/challengers cannot be members of the union.â€￾

There is no reporting category called “objectors.â€￾ Lets see one shred of DOL-language that says differnt. You ridicule, making things up and expect us to ignore it. Whether a west member joined with reservations or not is immaterial. They joined. I still say that if you all would join and have the solidarity you claim (Im sure you do), with support from our too senior to care about the NIC and the ALPO-phyles, you get control of the union and can vote down anything. But youd rather just flame-throw and make things up. I dont get it. Wopr said it right:

How bout this. If the non paying dues members would pay dues, then through a majority vote they would dictate the direction of the new union. Instead they protest by not getting involved and keep complaining. If you don't pay dues don't complain. Just a thought wopr

If the west really has the unity they say they have and we have the disunity they say we have, they could control this union. But according to their “information,â€￾ east pilots are quitting USAPA in droves. If thats true, then thats fewer votes to help the west. Theyre defeating themselves.

Then we got electricjet98:

USAPA will be financially bankrupted by the lack of paying members and shown to be morally bankrupt by the court action seeking the injunction. Many of us (probably, the majority) are not thrilled with ALPA, but we know that USAPA is a dismal failure. Not wishing to split the anti-USAPA vote between ALPA and other potential bargaining agents, we'll almost certainly (and grudgingly) vote for ALPA to prevent USAPA from causing everyone further harm.


Jet, where you getting this financial BK stuff? With over $450K coming in a month from East pilots alone, thats more money than both east and west kept before ALPO got its grubby hands on our ALPO-dues. USAPA a failure? Theyve been in office only 6 months and they put together a contract demand complete with a seniority list, something ALPO couldnt do in three years after the merger announcement. And comparing USAPAs pay scale to the best ALPO could do: $150/hr (a320), USAPA: $181/hr. No, we probably wont end up there, but at least they didnt show up with a white flag. ALPO had a year after the NIC and not only couldnt get a contract approved, but they couldnt even hold onto the property. If USAPA fails, theyll be removed in summer 2011, but dont count on ALPO winning that election. Theyll be competing with the IBT and anyone else who wants $10M/yr in dues money. Snooper

 

[nostradamus]

Do you suppose there are 250+ voters out there with "buyers remorse"?? I'll bet the $60,000 annual loss of the top 517 there is. <_<

america west pilots are all paid the same regardless of what airplane they fly. From the west contract;

SECTION 3
COMPENSATION

B. AIRCRAFT CATEGORIES
For pay purposes, the B-737, Airbus A320 family and
B-757 shall be considered in the same category.

west has a history of not having better pay for the "top" positions.

If I were you I would be more concerned with your own furloughs. Tell us the pay loss for someone who lost their job or a Captain that is now an f/o. Put that on one of your graphs and show it to your west pilots.

Notice on the graph that leo shows you every day. In the A330 position, under the west box it says n/a.

alpa tried to throw the pay bait out to this "250" target market once before. It did not work for them and it will not work this time for the west propaganda machine.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Do you suppose there are 250+ voters out there with "buyers remorse"?? I'll bet the $60,000 annual loss of the top 517 there is. <_<

I'll bet there is NOT.

Sincerely,
One of the 517

 

[Freighterguynow]

This is the special Leonidas update for Columbus Day, 2008.

Ya know, it's ok to put out an update without all the hyperbole and self congratulations.

Really.

 

[Freighterguynow]

You'll kindly turn your questions over to the fine folks at USAPAWATCH.COM

I only cut and paste what I find there. Sorry. However I would encourage you to continue digging!

http://www.alpawatch.org/

 

[nic4us]

Also, if the subversive activity has stopped - drop the lawsuit against the west. My guess is that we spent more on the USA Today ad than we lost due to mailings and bogus phone calls from the west.

Get a USAPA forum up and running.

Definitely hold elections sooner rather than later.

Piedmont1984,

This is something I did not understand. If the activity stopped I would have thought USAPA wuld have chalked it up as a win for their side and consider it case closed. However they decided the best course of action was to persue this further, not in state court but in the appealls process.

I believe they know that a state court charge would open the door for the countersuits which they could possibly lose to the tune of 10's of USA Today ads per defendant. So rather than persue the state charges they decide to tell a federal judge they think his decision is wrong and seek to overturn it in a higher court. What is next if they lose. Who has to tell USAPA you are wrong before they let it go? If we can figure this out maybe we can go directly to that authority and put an end to this bs.

From their short track record, I do not believe USAPA will accept a decision from any power of authority, if said decision contradicts their misguided lack of principal.

If the west is successful in their injunction, will USAPA tell that judge, well that does not apply to us because you too are wrong, we have to hear it from someone higher up who also will be wrong unless they agree with us.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Piedmont1984,



From their short track record, I do not believe USAPA will accept a decision from any power of authority, if said decision contradicts their misguided lack of principal.

If the west is successful in their injunction, will USAPA tell that judge, well that does not apply to us because you too are wrong, we have to hear it from someone higher up who also will be wrong unless they agree with us.

nic4us

What do you mean "lack of principal"? Steve Bradford is our principal

But seriously, should we get shot down in the courts, then I think the 800-1000 F/O's who were most negatively impacted by the Nic will decide it is time to compromise or capitulate.

OTOH, rumors of our defeat in court are greatly exaggerated. It has been three years now and only the seniority integration issue is holding Doug Parker back from pursuing his ambitions of running a truly global airline.

If I am wrong, go to PilotLoop, start a beer IOU thread and I will owe you one. I'm good for it.

 

[nic4us]

oops, did I type principal, I meant, er,, I will assume USAPA is taking in near half a million a month and has no need of extra principal, or that Seham is the principal of his school of contract theory.

But seriously, where is the A-West crew room in PHL refered to earlier by busdriver, and is there one in CLT also? I am thinking it is a metaphor for a local watering hole in which I would gladly buy an eastie the beverage of their choice if the topic of conversation was anything but seniority integration. No need to cash an IOU.

 

[cactusboy53]

I'm in CLT on the evening of the 16th. 22 hours. After some exercise(9 pm or so) I'll be down the street for some ribs and a couple of ales. Any suggestions regarding places to go?? Anyone wish to join me in spirited debate and libations (serious...no fights, just discussions)? You can PM if you like. Regards.

 

[cactusboy53]

I'll bet there is NOT.

Sincerely,
One of the 517

Then that would be one of you. I was just shooting for 251+ of the AAA group, perhaps including those that voted for USAPA just to "shoot one across the bow"...feeling that ALPA would win just barely. I have actually met a few of those.

This movement has cost our furloughed pilots HUGE. It has cost our out of seniority furloughed pilots HUGE. Past that, we "westies" have lost only a small percentage of income increase (3-5% ??). That pales in comparison to the tens of thousands and time off lost on the east. Overall it will cost us far less than it will cost the east pilots (in wages and time off that will NEVER be recouped). Game on.....

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

There are a couple of hundred out on LTD that voted ALPA because they bought into the ALPA scare tactics that they might loose their benefit because of a union change. Obviously, they didn't and now know those tactics for what they were, utter BS. There are a lot now that actually resent the blatant ALPA lie and the 100 mailings a month for the obvious lies and scare tactics and wouldn't vote ALPA, let alone sign a card to call for an election. These hundreds that ALPA had a one time chance to scare into voting their way that either won't participate or vote the opposite if their ever was an opportunity in the future, so you might want to figure that into your calculations.

 

[N924PS]

I'll bet there is NOT.

Sincerely,
One of the 517

Hmmm...weren't you denying you were a USAirways pilot a few weeks ago? And an International Captain at that, by George.

 

[Kev3188]

... not a pilot, not working at LCC and yet a union member who cares about all this?

Why is that so odd? I'm a union member at NW, and do not drive for a living, but I think it's interesting, too.

This fiasco could have ramifications for all of labor, not just you guys...