U.S. Pilot Labor Thread 8/3 - 8/10

[Megasnoop]

Divide and Conquer 101 :huh:

Classic if I say so myself.
I have no right to speak in your union matters and that is why I try to avoid them. Since USAPA is new, one should ask questions. Is the union endorsed by other powerful unions(teamsters, AFL-CIO, etc.)? Or is it another AMFA?

We're kind of on our own, but why do we need the endorsement of another union? ALPA can't run an election to get us back for 20 months. Maybe the Teamsters will compete for our dues money. BTW, the AFL-CIO is not a union. It is an organization funded by a collection of unions. Teamsters quit them two years ago.

I'm curious as to how two separate unions in one entity go about negotiating a 'fair' contract? What if USAPA goes on strike and ALPA doesn't? To me it seems like a futile fight for a go nowhere cause.

As others have said, Signal, we're all one union now. ALPA's gone. If the west refuses to participate they don't want any input. we can live with that. A strike's not going to happen, because we're not in Section 6 negotiations. So we'll get a crappy contract, "parity" plus maybe a little that Parker was talking about. But we'll get it long before ALPA is back on property and it will have DOH with fences. Contracts only last a couple of years. Seniority lasts forever.

A union divided cannot stand. I will be closely observing the future...

So profound. Knock yourself out observing, though. Snoop

 

[N924PS]

It's late in the day there Westcoast Flyer, but I did find one bit of good aviation news today.

However, it's only good news if you are under 40 years of age, which won't involve many East pilots.

If you are under 40 years of age your First Class FAA Medical Certificate will now be valid for 12 months, under a change to FAR 61.23.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance...33;OpenDocument

 

[dariencc]

Trader Jon's was off limits because it served a definitely non-military clientele.

A true disgrace. A prime example of gutless leadership at work. Where have we seen that before?
Trader Jon Wiseman was a great man. I saw an article about his funeral. A huge Naval Air turnout, including many senior officers who traveled from around the world for the memorial. He treated the newest SNA with the same kindness and respect as the CNO. I knew a guy who'd gone through in the mid sixties who used to spend most nights at Trader's. He studied by the light of the pinball machines (I don't think he aced the program). Trader remained a very close friend of his until his death. They talked almost every week when I was stationed with him in the late 80s.
Jon would help out any SNA in need, whether with a favor, loan, moral support or whatever. As you know, his establishment was filled with Blue Angels memorabilia. The Blues made occasional appearances at his bar when I was there. Not so much to party, but to visit their good friend, Trader Jon Wiseman.
Doesn't the fact that spineless bureaucratic "officers" placed his fine gathering spot off limits say so much about the world we live in?

Point is, there wasn't a lot of "churning" out NAs in 1970-71

Oh, please. I hope you are not suggesting that NiceLandingCaptain is anything less than honest.

One story that's probably been inflated over the years was about an infamous Boat Schooler in VT-0 who bought a bar out on Santa Rosa Island called Dirty Joe’s. He mustered by phone like everyone who didn't have some duty assignment for about six months, then disappeared. They ran an Article 31 on him for being UA but dropped it when they found out that he never left town and never cashed a pay check. He was making too much money at the bar. That place was still there when I went through.

I heard the same story, never knew if it was true. I always hoped so. Gotta love a story like that. Not many people with balls like that in our sterile corporate world. Maybe Pollock.

No, just kidding.

The memories, Evelyn’s Grunge Bar, the Oyster Bar, Happy Hour at Mustin Beach. I couldn't stand Whiting.

You're right. Whiting sucked, and the biggest mistake I made back then was to live in Milton. The place was a toilet. I should have sucked it up and driven the 45 minutes to P-cola. Evelyn's Grunge was an experience. The clientele was nasty even by my standards back then, and I was a heavy drinker in those days!

 

[nic4us]

We're kind of on our own, but why do we need the endorsement of another union? ALPA can't run an election to get us back for 20 months. Maybe the Teamsters will compete for our dues money. BTW, the AFL-CIO is not a union. It is an organization funded by a collection of unions. Teamsters quit them two years ago.



As others have said, Signal, we're all one union now. ALPA's gone. If the west refuses to participate they don't want any input. we can live with that. A strike's not going to happen, because we're not in Section 6 negotiations. So we'll get a crappy contract, "parity" plus maybe a little that Parker was talking about. But we'll get it long before ALPA is back on property and it will have DOH with fences. Contracts only last a couple of years. Seniority lasts forever.



So profound. Knock yourself out observing, though. Snoop

snoop,

when your seniority is determined by the cba it is indeed not going to be forever but only as long as the term of the contract, or until the judge tells you said contract is in violation of a duty of fair representation, and enforces the nic, at which time your nic seniority will be the temporary template in place until another merge or your retirement, whichever comes first.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

snoop,

when your seniority is determined by the cba it is indeed not going to be forever but only as long as the term of the contract, or until the judge tells you said contract is in violation of a duty of fair representation, and enforces the nic, at which time your nic seniority will be the temporary template in place until another merge or your retirement, whichever comes first.

Seniority is always established by the CBA. Otherwise it would be a meritocracy as in the white collar world and advancements, transfers, etc. would be subject entirely to company discretion and would likely be predicated off performance evaluations, annual reviews, interviews and the like. In the trade/unionist world , longevity is non-arbitrary, objective method of seniority and an equal application of criteria to all individuals and has stood up in courts, time and time again when challenged for fairness.

Legally there is no Nic award. The Nic award was a bargaining position established by ALPA protocols and only had weight when ALPA was constitutionally bound to use its resources to see that bargaining position implemented in a joint contract. It never existed as part of a CBA because ALPA failed to achieve a joint contract. In any case, there was nothing binding about it, because the company cannot be compelled to accept any contractual demand or change whether it be seniority or $200/hr for a pay rate.

If a DFR suit is brought, the application of NIC will not be at issue, as it was simply a bargaining position of the previous bargaining agent but rather the DOH method with conditions and restrictions that USAPA intends to use for integration and whether it constitutes a violation of representation rights to any portion of the pilot group. DOH has been tested in court in previous union integrations and has held up as fair and equal.

 

[nic4us]

Seniority is always established by the CBA. Otherwise it would be a meritocracy as in the white collar world and advancements, transfers, etc. would be subject entirely to company discretion and would likely be predicated off performance evaluations, annual reviews, interviews and the like. In the trade/unionist world , longevity is non-arbitrary, objective method of seniority and an equal application of criteria to all individuals and has stood up in courts, time and time again when challenged for fairness.

Legally there is no Nic award. The Nic award was a bargaining position established by ALPA protocols and only had weight when ALPA was constitutionally bound to use its resources to see that bargaining position implemented in a joint contract. It never existed as part of a CBA because ALPA failed to achieve a joint contract. In any case, there was nothing binding about it, because the company cannot be compelled to accept any contractual demand or change whether it be seniority or $200/hr for a pay rate.

If a DFR suit is brought, the application of NIC will not be at issue, as it was simply a bargaining position of the previous bargaining agent but rather the DOH method with conditions and restrictions that USAPA intends to use for integration and whether it constitutes a violation of representation rights to any portion of the pilot group. DOH has been tested in court in previous union integrations and has held up as fair and equal.

westpuslot;

we are all aware of seham's theories on labor law, but since what is going on here has never been done before, it has never been tested as you claim, or been held up, there is no precedence. However there are past histories of Seham's other failed attempts including the dismissal of the rico suit, which I understand is now being apealled. When it is also laughed out of court will anyone on your side see your just being run up billable hours and dump this guy.

as a side note, your screen name is interesting, it is an anagram for "lost up west" which is where usapa is heading quicker than you probably imagine.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

we are all aware of seham's theories on labor law, but since what is going on here has never been done before, it has never been tested as you claim, or been held up, there is no precedence.

It's actually a legal argument put forth by Jeffrey Freund as well. Amazing that Seham and Freund agree on what ALPA merger policy actually is, wouldn't you say?

 

[dariencc]

Trader remained a very close friend of his until his death. They talked almost every week when I was stationed with him in the late 80s.

I should learn not to post after a week of redeyes. Should have read "late 70s." Don't want to be posting false time lines like someone we know and love.

I found this fascinating bio of Trader online. His name is actually spelled "Weissman." What a great guy.

http://www.pensapedia.com/wiki/Trader_Jon's

 

[HighbutFast]

Have you guys thought about what to do regarding Freunds pleading on the record about what the Nic "actually is" and what it "doesn't do"...?

As your boy U-Turn quite correctly noted, you can't have it both ways (from the same lawyer, no less)

You have a serious problem (several,actually) going forward.

First off, your lawyer is starting with his pants down already...he can't take those statements back, now can he?

If any DFR suit gets filed, I suggest an order for you:

1) the West MEC, for their role in ignoring everything (including Freund) at Wye River.
2) ALPA NAtional, (maybe) for not compelling a deal at Wye River.

Other than that, it's a waste of time.

Happy Trails

 

[checksix]

USAPA UPDATE
August 6, 2008



Item One: On August 6, 2008, USAPA filed the necessary documents to initiate an appeal in its litigation against AWAPPA and its co-defendants.

As we have previously communicated to the pilot group, the defendants filed a Motion to Dismiss the action based on the argument that the federal court did not have jurisdiction over the matter. Significantly, for the purposes of the defendants´ motion, the federal court actually assumed the truth of all factual allegations, including those paragraphs alleging that the defendants had engaged in criminal threats of physical retaliation, sending excrement in the mail, and criminal acts of electronic and telephonic sabotage. Nevertheless, on technical grounds, the federal court found that it did not have jurisdiction over the sole federal cause of action under the civil RICO statute. The court dismissed the state causes of action without prejudice and granted USAPA leave to file these causes of action in state court.

Instead of filing in state court, USAPA has decided to appeal the federal court's decision. The decision to appeal was based both on our determination that the federal court's technical decision was in error and our desire to pursue the remedies available under the RICO statute, including treble damages and attorney's fees. In short, we believe that the defendants should reimburse USAPA for all costs and fees associated with the alleged criminal activity.

If USAPA prevails on the appeal, the case will be remanded to federal court for further proceeding. If USAPA does not prevail, the applicable limitations period will allow sufficient time to re-file the action in the appropriate state court.

A copy of USAPA's appeal is posted on the Member's Only homepage.

Item Two: ASAP forms continue to have a positive effect on determining the integrity of our flight plans. Please continue to closely monitor the difference between the planned fuel burn and the actual fuel burn and submit an ASAP form when the planned burn was less than the actual burn. Our FAA ASAP Event Review Committee member has requested that the ASAP report be as specific as possible as to why the planned fuel burn was insufficient. Examples may be that the flight plan did not accurately reflect the altitude of the flight, a delayed climb or an early descent, holding, or TRW avoidance. ASAP reports can be filed electronically by using the online Safety Reporting System at www.usair-safety.com.

Item Three: The Board of Pilot Representatives continued their scheduled meeting today in Philadelphia at the Sheraton University City Hotel, 36th and Chestnut Streets. The meeting convened today at 9:00 am and adjourned at 6:00 pm. Tomorrow is the final day of the three day scheduled meeting and will convene at 0900 and adjourn at 1700 or at the conclusion of business.

Today's meeting started with Safety Committee Co-Chairman Captain Larry McCarroll who briefed the BPR on the up-and-coming ICAO Safety Management System (SMS) in which US Airways and other Carriers worldwide are planning to participate. SMS is a way of doing business that incorporates four major pillars:

Policy structure
Risk Management
Safety Assurances (ASAP, FOQA)
Safety Promotion, a just culture
Safety Committee Co-Chairman, Captain Tom Kubik briefed the BPR on the status of ASAP as it pertains to language improvements sought to protect pilots in instances when multiple source reports are submitted. At present, the BPR has not acted on the ASAP program and accordingly, the program continues under the 120 day extension which expires August 21st.

The new Training Committee Chairman, Captain Garry Hummel briefed the BPR on the recent ill-conceived simulator fuel "training" and US Airways' AQP program. In short, Captain Hummel said politics and economics should never be allowed in the “schoolhouseâ€￾ (Training Centers). He also gave a thorough brief, including a history concerning AQP Training. The US Airways Pilots were one of the pioneer groups who utilized AQP which has been tremendously successful throughout the industry.

Captain Pete Oronato (SWA), President, Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations (CAPA), briefed the BPR on the history and current workings of CAPA. At this time, CAPA Members include the 23,000 pilots of American Airlines, UPS, AirTran, Southwest and ABX. CAPA has been representing pilots for 11 years in many legislative manners such as safety, security, FAA oversight, and foreign ownership. The BPR will be discussing USAPA’s membership options into the CAPA Association.

Communications Committee Vice Chairman, Captain Arnie Gentile, briefed the BPR on a strategic communications plan that will support the Negotiating Advisory Committee (NAC) moving forward. As negotiations intensify, the Communications Committee will work closely with the NAC to provide our pilots with as much information as possible.

To conclude the day, the Negotiating Advisory Committee (NAC) briefed the BPR on the progress of negotiations including a brief history from the start of negotiations on June 16th.

The following sections have been completed:

Section 6 - Moving Expenses
Section 9 - Misc Flying
Section 15 - Physical Exams
Section 16 - Worker's Compensation Benefits Section 17 - Missing,, POW or Hostage Benefits

The following sections have not been passed by USAPA:

Section 1 - Scope
Section 3 - Compensation
Section 13 - Leaves
Section 22 - Seniority
Section 25 - Scheduling
Section 26 - General
Section 30 - Duration

Sections not yet passed by Company:

Section 14 - Sick Leave
Section 27 - Health & Welfare
Section 28 - Retirement

The following Sections are currently being discussed:

Section 4 - Pay Guarantees
Section 5 - Expenses
Section 7 - Vacation
Section 8 - Deadhead
Section 10 - Covered Pilots
Section 11 - Training
Section 12 - Hours of Service
Section 14 - Sick Leave
Section 18 - International
Section 19 - Discipline
Section 20 - Grievance
Section 21 - System Board of Adjustment
Section 23 - Furlough and Recall
Section 24 - Filling of Vacancies

The next scheduled negotiations with Management are the weeks of August 18th and September 15th. Also today, in executive session, the NAC discussed specific details concerning furlough mitigation proposals. In addition, the BPR is looking closely at APA's recently filed lawsuit which, if successful, would permit APA to recommend that their pilots not fly any additional voluntary hours in order to mitigate furloughs.

 

[cleardirect]

Well here is the USAPA explanation of their ill-conceived cause for their continued malicious action. If you read it closely they are mixing the truth with fiction.

Item One: On August 6, 2008, USAPA filed the necessary documents to initiate an appeal in its litigation against AWAPPA and its co-defendants.

As we have previously communicated to the pilot group, the defendants filed a Motion to Dismiss the action based on the argument that the federal court did not have jurisdiction over the matter. (More importantly the complaint had no legal merit at all. They always leave that part out.) Significantly, for the purposes of the defendants´ motion, the federal court actually assumed the truth of all factual allegations, including those paragraphs alleging that the defendants had engaged in criminal threats of physical retaliation, sending excrement in the mail, and criminal acts of electronic and telephonic sabotage. (Even assuming all of that, the judge still dismissed with prejudice.) Nevertheless, on technical grounds, (The law.) the federal court found that it did not have jurisdiction over the sole federal cause of action under the civil RICO statute. The court dismissed the state causes of action without prejudice and granted USAPA leave to file these causes of action in state court.

Instead of filing in state court, USAPA has decided to appeal the federal court's decision. The decision to appeal was based both on our determination that the federal court's technical decision was in error and our desire to pursue the remedies available under the RICO statute, including treble damages and attorney's fees. In short, we believe that the defendants should reimburse USAPA for all costs and fees associated with the alleged criminal activity.

This is the malicious part. The RICO part of this complaint is $298,000 per month times three for a penalty. Two federal charges. $1,788,000.00. I do know for sure if that continues to accumulate for every month or not. So what they want is at least 1.7 million dollars possibly $7.1 million if it accumulates, to repay them their costs and penalties and their legal fees. Seems a bit excessive to me. If they only wanted their costs they could file in small claims court for whatever they think they are owed. This is not about collecting some perceived debt. This is pure intimidation and meanness and emotion and the lawyer trying to save face.

If USAPA prevails on the appeal, the case will be remanded to federal court for further proceeding. If USAPA does not prevail, the applicable limitations period will allow sufficient time to re-file the action in the appropriate state court.
A copy of USAPA's appeal is posted on the Member's Only homepage.

This tells me that this emotionally driven group will not stop. They just told the west that if they lose in federal court again they will continue. There are three state charges of RICO in that part of the complaint. $2,682,000.00. Plus additional demands. Yes that would 2.6 million to 10.6 million dollars that they are trying to come after the individual pilots for personally. Make no mistake USAPA is vicious and vindictive. They are going to continue to try and intimidate the west. The individuals and the AWA pilot group. This appeal costs USAPA very little money. The only down side for USAPA is that they will get their asses handed to them again. Embarrassing for them yes but in 9 months they will have embarrassed themselves in many more ways.

USAPPA is personally attacking the very pilots that it pretends to represent.

 

[nostradamus]

You underestimated the old "geezers" did you not, sir? Your group chose the weapons.

In your language;

Dude, where's my A330?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Well here is the USAPA explanation of their ill-conceived cause for their continued malicious action. If you read it closely they are mixing the truth with fiction.

Item One: On August 6, 2008, USAPA filed the necessary documents to initiate an appeal in its litigation against AWAPPA and its co-defendants.

As we have previously communicated to the pilot group, the defendants filed a Motion to Dismiss the action based on the argument that the federal court did not have jurisdiction over the matter. (More importantly the complaint had no legal merit at all. They always leave that part out.) Significantly, for the purposes of the defendants´ motion, the federal court actually assumed the truth of all factual allegations, including those paragraphs alleging that the defendants had engaged in criminal threats of physical retaliation, sending excrement in the mail, and criminal acts of electronic and telephonic sabotage. (Even assuming all of that, the judge still dismissed with prejudice.) Nevertheless, on technical grounds, (The law.) the federal court found that it did not have jurisdiction over the sole federal cause of action under the civil RICO statute. The court dismissed the state causes of action without prejudice and granted USAPA leave to file these causes of action in state court.

Instead of filing in state court, USAPA has decided to appeal the federal court's decision. The decision to appeal was based both on our determination that the federal court's technical decision was in error and our desire to pursue the remedies available under the RICO statute, including treble damages and attorney's fees. In short, we believe that the defendants should reimburse USAPA for all costs and fees associated with the alleged criminal activity.

This is the malicious part. The RICO part of this complaint is $298,000 per month times three for a penalty. Two federal charges. $1,788,000.00. I do know for sure if that continues to accumulate for every month or not. So what they want is at least 1.7 million dollars possibly $7.1 million if it accumulates, to repay them their costs and penalties and their legal fees. Seems a bit excessive to me. If they only wanted their costs they could file in small claims court for whatever they think they are owed. This is not about collecting some perceived debt. This is pure intimidation and meanness and emotion and the lawyer trying to save face.

If USAPA prevails on the appeal, the case will be remanded to federal court for further proceeding. If USAPA does not prevail, the applicable limitations period will allow sufficient time to re-file the action in the appropriate state court.
A copy of USAPA's appeal is posted on the Member's Only homepage.

This tells me that this emotionally driven group will not stop. They just told the west that if they lose in federal court again they will continue. There are three state charges of RICO in that part of the complaint. $2,682,000.00. Plus additional demands. Yes that would 2.6 million to 10.6 million dollars that they are trying to come after the individual pilots for personally. Make no mistake USAPA is vicious and vindictive. They are going to continue to try and intimidate the west. The individuals and the AWA pilot group. This appeal costs USAPA very little money. The only down side for USAPA is that they will get their asses handed to them again. Embarrassing for them yes but in 9 months they will have embarrassed themselves in many more ways.

USAPPA is personally attacking the very pilots that it pretends to represent.

AWAPPA has recently been recommending joining USAPA and then acting in a manner to warrant expulsion as an attempt to avoid both union dues or agency fees and you are surprised that USAPA isn't playing tittly winks and acting like a labor union. How would an APA or Teamsters respond to the behavior that caused the lawsuit or continuing behavior? If you think they would sit back and be passive, you are fooling yourself.

 

[electricjet98]

USAPA UPDATE
August 6, 2008

Significantly, for the purposes of the defendants´ motion, the federal court actually assumed the truth of all factual allegations, including those paragraphs alleging that the defendants had engaged in criminal threats of physical retaliation, sending excrement in the mail, and criminal acts of electronic and telephonic sabotage.

Instead of filing in state court, USAPA has decided to appeal the federal court's decision. The decision to appeal was based both on our determination that the federal court's technical decision was in error and our desire to pursue the remedies available under the RICO statute, including treble damages and attorney's fees. In short, we believe that the defendants should reimburse USAPA for all costs and fees associated with the alleged criminal activity.

Seehem and USAPA leadership need to "spin" the process for the continued support of the angry east fo's and the sympathetic captains. At this point of the game the judge always assumes guilt of the defendents. What he is saying, is even if the defendents are guilty it simply doesn't belong in federal court. His further explanation would seem that he also believes that it also doesn't belong in state court, it doesn't even belong in kangaroo court.

So what happened to their statment that the damaging behavior has stopped? And what happened to their statement that the lawsuit was simply to stop the bad behavior and continuing damages? If they believe the defendents should reimburse USAPA for all costs and fees, why seek treble damages? This lawsuit is a prime example of USAPA's desire to harm the pilots of AWA to the maximum degree. This attitude is further exemplified in their desire to impose a DOH seniority list despite the pilot groups agreement to use ALPA merger policy and binding arbitration.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You underestimated the old "geezers" did you not, sir? Your group chose the weapons.

In your language;

Dude, where's my A330?

Dude, where's my 10 million dollars in damages per indidual defendant? No, scratch that, we've been harmed, I say make it a Jillion dollars, just like Al Bundy did. Plus, we're a real union, thats what real unions do.