TWU negotiations.........what?

[TWU informer]

My exp w AA was just pathetic!
AS starts just under $25/hr w all prems(nights), and tops, think around 37-38/hr(5-6yrs). I wasn't real impressed w the money for SEA. But according to the AMFA rep, they've got a clause in there contract to revisit the top out wage when the prevailing top exceeds there's.
Boeing STARTED me at 25/hr back in '08. Which is where I'm hoping to return. I'm hearing it's getting a bit better up there.

Chapter 11 BK Courst will inusre that prevailing top never exceeds theirs.

 

[TWU informer]

Overspeed does not like strait up comparasions. He often says "You cant cherry pick" when the company does it all the time. The company picks whatever comparasion is good for them but Overspeed says we should not do the same, that we should turn the other cheek so to speak and accept whatever the company proposes. Since Overspeeed wants to keep his identity a secret and he often cites struff he would not know unless he heard it from someone in negotiations you have to wonder who he really is.

By the way we are at the bottom, even USAIRAWAYS will pass us in July in wages without a new contract.

Overspeed and CIO seem to be closely related to me.

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed does not like strait up comparasions. He often says "You cant cherry pick" when the company does it all the time. The company picks whatever comparasion is good for them but Overspeed says we should not do the same, that we should turn the other cheek so to speak and accept whatever the company proposes. Since Overspeeed wants to keep his identity a secret and he often cites struff he would not know unless he heard it from someone in negotiations you have to wonder who he really is.

By the way we are at the bottom, even USAIRAWAYS will pass us in July in wages without a new contract.

And aren't you the one that said number two won't do? So we will be number one thanks to your advice. Number one from the bottom. Awesome dude. Love it when you complain about now that we are in BK that the offer is worse than the July 2010 TA. DUH! Don't you remember being told that BK is not run by some benevolent BK attorney.

I get my info from the rumor mill out here in DFW. We have a great internet cafe and lounge. It's where we get all the scoop on presidents playing Mafia Wars and Airline Mogul or better yet posting on blogs when they are supposed to be negotiating. Good idea to not be present Bob, then you can say things like, they were going to do it anyway, the International was cutting secret meetings, TULE would roll call anyway, etc...

By the way you said we were going to get a better deal by voting the July 2010 TA down. Now we wait.

Who am I? The one who is exposing your BS Bob. It's actually really easy.

 

[Overspeed]

Just to refresh your memory Bob.

June 13, 2008
“Dont grant more concesssions now because either way it wont protect you any more than prior concessions protected those who went BK.”
“AA still has the money. Rumor is they offered $42 an hour if we would agree to allowing them to have 20% LSMs and part timers to replace full time A&Ps on the line.”

Bob says don’t give up on anything. Even starts setting the expectation that the Company is considering giving Southwest wages. WRONG MCT's are keeping their pay raise.

September 26, 2008
“Even if we just got everything back we would still be working under a 5 year pay freeze which is in reality a pay cut due to inflation. Restore and more.”

Owens gets ready for his run for President and promises, “Restore and more.” He will say anything to get elected. Boy was he WRONG.

September 30, 2008
“So they could give back every penny and still be in the black $120 million.”

States that AA could give everything back and still make $120 million in 2008. AA has not turned a profit yet. WRONG again.

July 15, 2009
“I could care less if they ever increase the headcount in my Local, I prefer to see my members get more, not to get more members.”

He talks about how to get more money and doesn’t care how many members that will not have jobs. SELFISH

July 21, 2009
“Last year they lost billions but they still "found" money for Executive bonuses. If they can find the money for that then they can find the money for us.”

Bob doesn’t understand that “bonuses” are mostly made up of stock options. It is not money that gets given to management out of AMR bank accounts. Bob makes statements that there is more “…money for us.” Again, those bonuses were not cash out of the AA treasury. I don't agree AMR management should had received any bonuses however.

October 8, 2009
“Keep in mind this is the company's first counter, it still sucks but AA continues to demand more concessions and we keep moving closer to the company! Dont blame me, I warned that this would happen, just make sure you vote NO. Like I said, let our brothers and sisters at Continental fight for the profession just like our brothers and sisters at NWA did in 2001. We waited this long, why cut off Continentals chances of getting a better deal by settling for the concessionary piece of crap thats on the table now?”

Bob discussing negotiating tactics and tells members to vote NO and hasn’t even brought a deal forward yet. Suggests that we let CO settle first and then we will have a batter baseline to work from. That happened now what?

January 11, 2010
“Do we sit back and let all the other corporations that feed off the airlines take everything, thus providing AA with the excuse that there's nothing less for us or simply grab as much as we can regardless of what the airline says they can afford to pay? I say grab whatever we can get.”

Stated before we should get top pay now says, “…grab whatever we can get.” What is it? Top pay of whatever we can get?

May 17, 2010
“Instead of just accepting this because you dont trust your union reject it, prove to the International, the Company and some of your representatives that you arent a bunch of sheep willing to accept whatever they throw at you. VOTE NO!!”

After the M&R TA is approved for a membership vote, Owens recommends a no vote because he believes there is more money to be had. WRONG

November 26, 2010
“The OH vs the line came long before the AA vs TWA BS, maybe you didnt realize it but you had the same thing at TWA, because like Tulsa you could afford to ignore the needs of the line out there in the low cost heartland.”
“The TA was a non offer to the line but an all out attack on the bases, for many years the Tulsa base gave AA a huge cost advantage over all their competitors. They could always count on Tulsa to give AA the lowest total costs in the industry.”
“From what I've read a rival to the IBT for the mechanics at UAL materialized in Denver two weeks ago as well. That will undoubtably put pressure on the IBT to get them a better deal. They have to try and explain why an A&P at UPS needs more than $46.99 but an A&P at UAL and CAL should settle for $36/hr. $10/hr is simply too big of a difference to be pawned off as "Apples and Oranges", they have to basically convince the UAL guys that they are Pintos and the UPS guys are Lincolns.”

Owens again setting the expectation that AMTs should get more than $36/hourly and more like $46.99 at UPS.

December 8, 2010
“We need to bring balance between the company and the union, last time they took and only took, this time they have to give and only give.”

After the failed TA, which he recommended a no vote on, Bob makes promises that we can get more now.

March 14, 2011
“Under the proposal a BASE AMT working days would max out at $39.83. What you earn would vary depending on where and when you work. Work midnights you get $2.33, which is still less than the standard 10% that most night shift workers get. Work on the Line or weekends in the base and you get $0.55 more on top of that. Live in a high cost city and you can get as much as $1.25 more.”

The failed TA would provide thousands of AMTs in the Bases with near top pay for overhaul mechanics. Bob now throws out a number of $39.83 when he has been told that MROs pay around $25 top out. The airlines he quotes as paying $40 plus have less than half the number of AMTs that AA has and outsource the rest of the work. He never says that.

March 19, 2011
“We should plan on getting to the $50/hr mark within the next five years or before they use the shortage to push through FAR 66.”

Now Bob says let’s shoot for $50 by 2016 and says the FARs will change. Swami Bob has not been accurate yet, but why not? Let’s get $50 Bob, you can do it!

May 14, 2011
“The IBT at UPS was doing it for what, 6 years? They asked to be released, got the support of their pilots union and eventually walked away with $50/hr. The APA and APFA have been in as long as we have.”

Owens throws out $50 at UPS again as if we have the possibility of getting that. Maybe he does think that but the IBT at CO and UA have not been able to get that for their airline members.

June 4, 2011
“If we had voted YES we would still be making less than we were in 2003. We proved that we will not settle for the crumbs the company wants to give us after we doubled our productivity and the company saw their revenues soar. We need to get released.”

Yes we would have been making less that 2003 however “doubled our productivity and revenues soar?” Costs have risen faster than revenues which he conveniently ignores.

June 28, 2011
“We are looking for a top pay of around $44. That would be a guy working nights in a high cost area. At the most a few hundred mechanics. The majority would be at $39, with around 1200 OSMs way below that. I havent figured out what the weighted average would be but my guess is around $40/hr. Thats $5/hr less than SWA and $10/hr less than UPS.”

Now Bob says we are looking at $44 an hour. Remember, that is what he is asking and has backed off from getting UPS or Southwest wages. That’s only $8 more an hour than what CO and UA settled for and they outsource more than half their work. He doesn’t tell us that.

July 20, 2011
“I said that we needed to get a better deal and that the TA was totally unacceptable. If another shoddy deal like last years TA gets ramrodded through again then the members must be prepared to do the same thing again, Vote No and be ready to engage in Self Help. The two remining major carriers that pay less than AA are also in mediation, and UAL rejected a deal that was better than ours.”

And UA accepted the same deal with a buyout option. The TA Bob rips actually paid more DOS than UA and CO deals they accepted. The UA deal still has no cap on outsourcing while the AA filed TA Bob recommended we vote no on did.

September 28, 2011
“I believe UPS took five years and they got full backpay as well, plus they top out at $50/hr. I agree these talks have gone on too long, locking ourselves in the room may seem like a good idea but only if there are consequences to not having an agreement when we come out, we have to get released, then we get to hold a gun to their heads instead of them being the only ones with a gun. Its our move and we need to make it. Saying we wont get released is no excuse for not asking for it.”

Bob throwing out a number, $50/hour, and the idea that full retro is possible. Still says that we need to be released yet he knows that the APA and APFA have asked already and the NMB has said there is still movement.

October 1, 2011
“The Continental contract was a transitional agreement so that one really doesn't count,the rest are either non-union or open. That leaves two contracts where to compare with, UPS and WN.”

Bob said on October 8, 2009 that we should wait for CO to settle. Now they have and he discounts it as being, “…a transitional agreement so that one really doesn’t count.” Is that how it works? You ignore what doesn’t back your argument? Nice Bob. Were the little kid that sticks his fingers in his ears saying, “La, la, la, I hear nothing,” when someone told you something you didn’t want to hear?

October 9, 2011
“Its not so much the difference between the two that concerns me but the total, if the base guys want to keep us all exactly the same and shoot for $50/hr I'm OK with that as well, what I'm against is when guys say "its good enough for us here so it should be good enough for you there".”
“Glad to hear it, we all need to get more than what was in the TA.”

Does Bob think that negotiations is like sitting on Santa’s lap? Let’s not be grounded in reality. Hey Bob, I want $75 and hour, you okay with that? As long as it’s better than the what was in the failed TA right?

December 15, 2011
“Well you can play whatever games you like with your numbers but let me tell you something, we aint coming out of this with anything less than what UAL settles for, we would rather shut the place down first.”

Well Bob, what the hell happened? BK was a scam, if we get anything less than the 2001 agreement we will be taking a paycut, the pension is safe, outsourcing won’t happen, we are looking at top pay of $44/hour, AA has lots of money, and now according to you, “…we ain’t coming out of this with anything else than what UAL settles for, we would rather shut the place down first.” Bob, they have all of their airframe overhaul outsourced and the DOS wages of the TA are less than the AA failed TA you recommended to VOTE NO on!

 

[FWAAA]

You and I have gone back and forth over labor costs for many years now, AA has gone on record as saying that they have an $800 million dollar cost disadvantage, which we have debated, yet in BK they say they need $1. 25 billion in savings from labor. Well if the disadvantage is $800 million how is it they need $1.25 billion from labor?

AA's claimed labor cost disadvantage is $800 million compared to the average of UA, DL and US labor costs. If AA had UA's labor costs, it would save a few hundred million a year. IIRC, DL's labor cost structure would save AA about $900 million a year. If AA had US' labor cost struture, AA would save about $2.2 billion per year. Overall, US is a very low-wage, low benefit airline. I realize that AMTs at all those airlines make as much (or nearly as much) as you. Credit that peculiar failure to the worthless union's inability to persuasively negotiate for the past several years.

The thinking is probably this: If AA is going to spend a few hundred million dollars on bankruptcy expenses (lawyers, consultants, advisors, investment bankers, accountants and various other parasites), then management figures it should seek labor cost savings a little better than the average of the competitors. That's probably why they're looking for $1.25 billion instead of just $800 million. I don't think the contract abrogation process would limit AA to just $800 million, so from management's perspective, why not seek a little more?

The recent flip flop on terminating he pensions has me thinking that the company did not want to take on the PBGC. AA could have put the program in deep trouble and the program has the backing of the government, if AA had gotten away with sinking the PBGC then started posting record profits there's a chance that the whole C-11 scam could come under public scrutiny. Just as proponents of bk reform for people were able to rewrite the law to stop individual scammers such a scandal could endanger the scam for other corporations who may really need it down the road.

US terminated all its pensions and has posted some decent profits over the past six years since the merger with HP. UA terminated all its pensions and has reported some decent profits since the merger with CO (but overall losses prior to the merger). DL terminated its pilot pension (and froze the others) and has reported decent profits since its merger with NW (which froze all its pensions). For all of Josh Gotbaum's hot air, what AA was proposing was no different than US, UA or DL (with respect to the DL pilot pension). AA has offered to freeze the pensions IF the unions agree to consensual concessions. If the concessions are rejected, I expect AA to terminate the pensions, regardless of Hot-Air Gotbaum's whining and bleating.

 

[FWAAA]

The one that sticks in my craw the worst is the most recent.
And that is the rejection of binding arbitration.
I now know AA management does not seek fair, they seek more than fair, and they feared what would be brought out in arbitration.

Rejection of binding arbitration was a mistake on management's part and now they are working double time at mental manipulation of the work force.

No other bankrupt airline has ever used binding arbitration while in Ch 11. Bankruptcy law is clear. Negotiate with labor groups and if no agreement is reached, abrogate the agreements and impose terms. Arbitration would simply introduce delay.

Now that the define pension is gone, they are seeking a $1 billion cost advantage over the competition.
That is much different than "competetive" cost structure.

No, AA is seeking to reduce labor costs by $1.25 billion when its labor cost disadvantage is about $800 million when compared to the industry average. That means that AA is seeking a labor cost advantage of about $425 millon compared to the average of UA, DL and US. AA's costs would still be far above the labor costs of US, as AA would save about $2.2 billion if it had the labor cost structure at US.

 

[Overspeed]

AA's claimed labor cost disadvantage is $800 million compared to the average of UA, DL and US labor costs. If AA had UA's labor costs, it would save a few hundred million a year. IIRC, DL's labor cost structure would save AA about $900 million a year. If AA had US' labor cost struture, AA would save about $2.2 billion per year. Overall, US is a very low-wage, low benefit airline. I realize that AMTs at all those airlines make as much (or nearly as much) as you. Credit that peculiar failure to the worthless union's inability to persuasively negotiate for the past several years.

The thinking is probably this: If AA is going to spend a few hundred million dollars on bankruptcy expenses (lawyers, consultants, advisors, investment bankers, accountants and various other parasites), then management figures it should seek labor cost savings a little better than the average of the competitors. That's probably why they're looking for $1.25 billion instead of just $800 million. I don't think the contract abrogation process would limit AA to just $800 million, so from management's perspective, why not seek a little more?


US terminated all its pensions and has posted some decent profits over the past six years since the merger with HP. UA terminated all its pensions and has reported some decent profits since the merger with CO (but overall losses prior to the merger). DL terminated its pilot pension (and froze the others) and has reported decent profits since its merger with NW (which froze all its pensions). For all of Josh Gotbaum's hot air, what AA was proposing was no different than US, UA or DL (with respect to the DL pilot pension). AA has offered to freeze the pensions IF the unions agree to consensual concessions. If the concessions are rejected, I expect AA to terminate the pensions, regardless of Hot-Air Gotbaum's whining and bleating.

If I understand correctly, AMR is at least limited to a large degree to what is in the original "ask" or term sheet. So 40% outsourcing and terminated pensions.

 

[Mr Red]

If I understand correctly, AMR is at least limited to a large degree to what is in the original "ask" or term sheet. So 40% outsourcing and terminated pensions.

The TWU just could'nt keep Bob Owens away,And all the local presidents that recommended a yes on T/A are gone !Whats that tell you.
A Unions job is to obtain the best pay and benifits posible for its members. So I guess I'm on Bobs side.
I think we've had enough of the bend over and spread-um of the last DECADE !!!

 

[Overspeed]

The TWU just could'nt keep Bob Owens away,And all the local presidents that recommended a yes on T/A are gone !Whats that tell you.
A Unions job is to obtain the best pay and benifits posible for its members. So I guess I'm on Bobs side.
I think we've had enough of the bend over and spread-um of the last DECADE !!!

Bob's there and the "Yes" voting Presidents are gone and what's that tell me? I guess based on the current situation, against all the facts that every other airline's unions and workers got shafted already in BK, and that we still don't have a deal the members voted to be shafted in BK court???

At least with the TA we got taken out to dinner before we spread them (your words), now we really are getting the quick and dirty without even a cracker.

 

[Birdman]

Bob's there and the "Yes" voting Presidents are gone and what's that tell me? I guess based on the current situation, against all the facts that every other airline's unions and workers got shafted already in BK, and that we still don't have a deal the members voted to be shafted in BK court???

Sure, if we had the facts of the "current situation" in the summer of 2010 things might be different now. Belabor this issue if you must.

 

[Overspeed]

Sure, if we had the facts of the "current situation" in the summer of 2010 things might be different now. Belabor this issue if you must.

Most were told "facts" by Bob's Traveling Circus back in 2010 with his entourage of JR, Pike, Schaible, and Gukelberger. They went to as many stations as possible telling people that there was more money on the table and BK was just a threat. These self proclaimed experts advised us that the "current situation" were scare tactics by the ATD and the koolaid drinkers. That anything other than a no vote was saying you were a rollover or worse.

Not belaboring the point reminding you of the fact that No Vote Coalition will be telling us to vote no again and take it to court. Bob's safety net is now, "Don't worry, you will be back at top pay in 2018." Great. I'm so relieved.

 

[strikeforce]

Bob's there and the "Yes" voting Presidents are gone and what's that tell me? I guess based on the current situation, against all the facts that every other airline's unions and workers got shafted already in BK, and that we still don't have a deal the members voted to be shafted in BK court???

At least with the TA we got taken out to dinner before we spread them (your words), now we really are getting the quick and dirty without even a cracker.

you are going to get shafted......either way! Pulp Fiction style!

The way I see it, Bob has all the time in the world to come on this forum and get you and Informer going because just like AA......the TWU has NO plan.

It's that easy!

You're NOT getting a T/A; You're NOT getting $17K in your pocket; You're NOT getting a consensual agreement; You're NOT getting a retro check;

But, YOU WILL GET BALL IN MOUTH! That's for sure!

Now, it is getting very old....very old my friend, let it go!

 

[TWU informer]

Most were told "facts" by Bob's Traveling Circus back in 2010 with his entourage of JR, Pike, Schaible, and Gukelberger. They went to as many stations as possible telling people that there was more money on the table and BK was just a threat. These self proclaimed experts advised us that the "current situation" were scare tactics by the ATD and the koolaid drinkers. That anything other than a no vote was saying you were a rollover or worse.

Not belaboring the point reminding you of the fact that No Vote Coalition will be telling us to vote no again and take it to court. Bob's safety net is now, "Don't worry, you will be back at top pay in 2018." Great. I'm so relieved.

So you are voting YES no matter what?

 

[Mr Red]

you are going to get shafted......either way! Pulp Fiction style!

The way I see it, Bob has all the time in the world to come on this forum and get you and Informer going because just like AA......the TWU has NO plan.

It's that easy!

You're NOT getting a T/A; You're NOT getting $17K in your pocket; You're NOT getting a consensual agreement; You're NOT getting a retro check;

But, YOU WILL GET BALL IN MOUTH! That's for sure!

Now, it is getting very old....very old my friend, let it go!

I've had a brightt red gimp ball since 2003 !

 

[Overspeed]

So you are voting YES no matter what?

No matter what? No. However I expect any tentative agreement will be better than the term sheet so voting no on something that is better than the term sheet would be inviting the term sheet items to be imposed.

We do have Bob's fail safe plan of the US Supreme Court though if we do vote no or civil unrest within the airline industry.