TIME FOR CHANGE
Veteran
Whats your point. You have lost me with your rambling. Post before you drink and make some sense.
Twu Atd Restructure Part 3
- Thread starter AMFAMAN
- Start date
Whats your point. You have lost me with your rambling. Post before you drink and make some sense.
Drippy Quill
Senior
- Sep 11, 2003
- 262
- 0
Antonio...you see my point. It hurts your pride, as a man, to realize I am correct in noticing the bend of your spine.
Hurt them from the inside = " But I'll miss $$$ if I'm not on the clock"
It's illegal to strike = "Oh God, I hope so"
Get my point now Antonio....and Billy look...no name calling...HAHAHA!!!
Hurt them from the inside = " But I'll miss $$$ if I'm not on the clock"
It's illegal to strike = "Oh God, I hope so"
Get my point now Antonio....and Billy look...no name calling...HAHAHA!!!
Another Little E-mail
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Little
To: Bob Owens ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Bob,
I do agree we should take a stand and I am not shy in that arena.Where I am disappointed is the lack of involvement by the AFL on an industry impact.You are so wrong about Local 100. We TWU International offered assistance a number of times, We have correspondence to that fact. It was under the Locals request that Sonny did not intervene. I believe we should have! We can debate the perception, but the facts are there. One cannot believe everything that is written in the newspapers. I believe they try to sensationalize.
Cheer up! The worst is yet to come!"
~ Mark Twain
Later!
Jim
By the way Little lied about Local 100. I heard it direct from the leaders of Local 100 that the International stabbed them in the back during negotiations, not only that but it got a lot of coverage in the New York papers. I also have documentation that shows that the TWU International and Local 100 are still at odds.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Little
To: Bob Owens ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Bob,
I do agree we should take a stand and I am not shy in that arena.Where I am disappointed is the lack of involvement by the AFL on an industry impact.You are so wrong about Local 100. We TWU International offered assistance a number of times, We have correspondence to that fact. It was under the Locals request that Sonny did not intervene. I believe we should have! We can debate the perception, but the facts are there. One cannot believe everything that is written in the newspapers. I believe they try to sensationalize.
Cheer up! The worst is yet to come!"
~ Mark Twain
Later!
Jim
By the way Little lied about Local 100. I heard it direct from the leaders of Local 100 that the International stabbed them in the back during negotiations, not only that but it got a lot of coverage in the New York papers. I also have documentation that shows that the TWU International and Local 100 are still at odds.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Little
To: Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Cindy Winslow ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; James C. Little ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: James C. Little
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:02 AM
Subject: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Thought this would be of some assistance in explaining the process to the members.
Later!
Jim
Director's Update
Directors Update: 02-23-03
In answer to a number of members questions regarding Bankruptcy and the impact on a CBA... OVERVIEW
NORMAL ENVIRONMENT
UNDER CHAPTER 11
All current provisions can be opened, by either mutual agreement or by virtue of Sections II or VI of the Railway Labor Act (RLA) for negotiations or renegotiation of any section or issue with the company
Deal with Judge, whose primary role is to protect the creditors and the corporate entity
In the hands of the stockholders and the management who have a vested interest in the company and a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders
Initially in the hands of the Debtor in possession (current management), with the permission of the creditors and the Judge. After a period of exclusivity (180 days) anyone can propose an alternative plan of reorganization, which could be adopted with the support of the creditors committee. The group(s) or individual(s) providing Debtor-in-Possession (DIP) financing typically extract enormous control in return for the high-risk financing they are providing. This is the natural habitat for "corporate raiders"
All avenues to assure contractual compliance or adherence are available, including grievances and, if necessary for egregious behavior, injunctions or restraining orders.
All grievances and litigation is "stayed" or frozen by the Judge. There is no litigation or grievance process except before the Bankruptcy Judge.
Continue to have the potential value of the instrument or plan
Basically become worthless as common stock and linked equity instruments such as options or warrants have value only after or behind; Priority claims, Secured creditors, Unsecured creditors and then any residual monies would be distributed to common stockholders in a liquidation. More likely is a full restructuring and replacement of all equity instruments.
Vacations and similarly earned and accrued benefits remain a financial obligation to the company
All accrued employee liabilities, including wages earned to date and accrued vacations, furlough pay, etc. are considered unsecured liabilities or claims and pooled with all other unsecured creditors, with the exception that the first $2,000 of employees claims are considered priority claims and take precedence over all other claims
An obligation that is required and protected by various State and Federal laws
Employee claims are secured only to the limits of "Employee priority claims" of a maximum of $2,000 dollars. This would include wages, accrued vacation pay, grievance awards and any other monies due from the corporations. Company must receive permission from the Court to resume paying wages.
Funding compliance required by various Federal laws and would include both payments for Defined Benefit Plans and Defined Contribution Plans
Contributions would cease and resumption subject to the plan of reorganization. The PBGC gets a seat on the creditor's committee by virtue of the funding obligations and has the power to "Distress Terminate" the Plan(s) if their evaluation would show funding insufficient to cover accrued obligations to the level of the PBGC minimums.
Completely negotiable and would become part of the CBA. If in the form of equity, would become part of the capital structure of the company
None
James C. Little
Director Air Transport Division
International Administrative Vice President.
That was a scare tactic by Little under the guise of "information". He left out important points such as the word "onerous". The judge had to determine that the contract was onerous in order to void it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Owens
To: Jim Little ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: James C. Little
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
You left out that once the contract is abrogated we are free to use self help. This is a powerful deterrent for both the Judge and the company to keep them from going too far. If the Union movement had a pair like they do in Europe then perhaps Union workers would not find themselves continually going backwards like we do. If we play by their rules we are destined to lose. But then again people earning six figures usually don't feel an urgency to revolt against injustices that are not perpetrated against them directly. If the union movement was this lethargic since its inception we would still be working 16 hrs a day, with no benefits, along side our children and parents. You are our leaders, the question is where are you leading us? The safe way to submission and slavery or the risky way to financial liberty and justice? We don't want to see the company go bankrupt but by opening our agreements we are saying that management is right, that we are the cause of the state of the industry. Spreading doom and gloom such as this without falling back on the founding principles of unionism such as the withholding of labor, is a tactic that the members should expect from the company not their union. The union should look to improve worker living standards not preserve a good business arrangement between a corporation and a representational organization. To all the Presidents out there, you can take this in and recommend that we cower before the company's threats of bankruptcy, but in two years when the industry has recovered, and your members followed your leadership and gave concessions, all they will remember is that you failed to lead.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Little
To: Bob Owens ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Bob,
I do not disagree in principle, and you raise a good point of adding the self help. Then on the opposite side we need to add PEB. Especially, under this darn administration. Growing up in the UK in a Union household you already know my position on AFL-CIO action or lack of. Bob, where I disagree is that we are playing by our rules. The APA is negotiating and the APFA may be negotiating, but we are NOT. I am also not spreading doom and gloom as you put it. I believe we need to prepare and educate our members. It is not a matter of if the company will file it is when and the timeline is rather short. What I can assure you is that this ATD administration does not take the task at hand lightly, and preservation of our members working rights is our Goal.I cannot speak for all of the Presidents. I will also not agree to any permanent changes, as you know we have been there and done that. I remember when I took over as AA System Coordinator and meeting with the Company to discuss a wage reopener during the time when AA was at the prime earnings. I was told sorry we have an agreement in place! I have no disagreement that we can just say No that is easy, but it is not leading. When we feel strongly about something, we will lead, we will act, even if others are not prepared to join us.
As Always,
Fraternally,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Owens
To: Jim Little ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Jim
With leadership comes with the responsibility of informing those you lead with all the possible outcomes, but it also comes with the responsibility of finding a way to win, leaders should give hope and direction.
If the President tried to impose a PEB, then we have to be returned to the conditions prior to the dispute, or status quo. If the status quo is not restored I would expect the Union to disregard the PEB upon moral principle since the PEB is based upon the RLA and all of the restrictions on self help are centered around the maintenance of the status quo. If the Bankruptcy Judge imposed changes-upon the companies request, then the judge by his ruling would have brought us straight to the self help step of the process. A PEB should be ignored if the self help is in response to court ordered concessions. Clearly a PEB issued in conjunction with court imposed concessions violates the intent of the RLA and to tolerate such a flagrant injustice by obedient submission just invites more abuse from the industry and the corporate controlled government.
Our members need to be lead. They need to be informed of what faces us and they need to be told to prepare to resist. We know that the government is clearly on the side of the corporations, this is not a new development. The government has been under such control for a long time however we have one thing in our favor, the corporate/government alliance hates disruptions. In fact, historically government reforms have only come when the threat of disruption becomes obvious and imminent.The old men in D.C. and 1700 Broadway will never lead any disruption. They are too old and have been beaten for so long that to them a stalemate is considered a great victory. Technically you work for 1700 Broadway and your ability or authority to lead us is limited. You will need a mandate from the locals that they will not recognize any replacement that the old men should send should you lead us to resist PEBs or injunctions. After the spectacle I saw this last December where Local 100 was fighting for such basic rights such as disciplinary hearings done on company time and the way Sonny failed to put political differences aside and abandoned these members I am convinced that no matter how bad things get the old men will never lead us in battle. We will be told to "live to fight another day, when in reality it is "live to surrender another day". In closing I will quote from a memorial to a man who I'm sure you are familiar with " The great appear great because we are on our knees. Let us rise!
Mourn not the dead that in the cool earth lie-
Dust unto dust-
The calm, sweet earth that mothers all who die
As all men must...
But rather mourn the apathetic throng-
The cowed and the meek-
Who see the world's great anguish and its wrong
And dare not speak!
Ralph Chaplin
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Little
To: Bob Owens ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Bob,
I do agree we should take a stand and I am not shy in that arena.Where I am disappointed is the lack of involvement by the AFL on an industry impact.You are so wrong about Local 100. We TWU International offered assistance a number of times, We have correspondence to that fact. It was under the Locals request that Sonny did not intervene. I believe we should have! We can debate the perception, but the facts are there. One cannot believe everything that is written in the newspapers. I believe they try to sensationalize.
Cheer up! The worst is yet to come!"
~ Mark Twain
Later!
Jim
Notice how Jim thinks its a big joke. Cheer up, the worst is yet to come! Yes, it did get worse for all of us but not for Little, he got a raise and a promotion!
Original Message -----
From: Bob Owens
To: Jim Little ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Jim;
Your disappointment at the AFL is justified but it should not be surprising. The old men have no fight, all they can do is make speeches. I remember talking with an elderly friend of the family once, he was in his 90s but had the demeanor of a 20 year old. He used to tell a lot of dirty jokes. My brother asked him if he still thought about getting laid, he said yea he still thought about it but the heart medication made it impossible. So even though he could not do it he still talked about it. That's what the labor movement faces, its led by a bunch of old men who will talk about the struggle but the biggest struggle they will engage in is getting up out of their chairs. They will never call for action. I respect the elderly, I respect their wisdom and I believe that there is a valued place in society for them, I don't think that they should be warehoused until they die but I don't think that they should be in command of a movement that has been in constant retreat for over two decades. Obviously their strategy is not working and for the good of us all they should step aside.Their experience is one of constant retreat. When is the last time we saw any real mobilization on their part? They are too cautious and are totally committed,upon the advice of counsel and their lobbyists, to work within the system. A system that even they admit is hopelessly biased against us. Their only concern is trying to boost up the numbers of members. They have been off the floor and cooped up in their ivory towers too long. What airline did Kerrigan work for? Answer, an airline that went out of business over 10 years ago, and the equipment that he is familiar with are consigned to history books and museums. If these men truly loved the movement then they would know that its time to step aside.
A couple of years back Koziatek yourself and I had lunch down in Dallas. I came down to get copies of the contract. During the discussion at lunch Koziatek remarked that while workers at NY might strike that the rest of the system never would. I replied that if that was the case that it was due to the leadership of the union not the makup of the membership. Ed had no faith in the membership and avoided contact with them. He is not a unique case, I believe that many union leaders feel this way. They may truly want what is good for the members but they have little faith in them. Leaders that feel this way are leaders who lack self confidence. The detachment of the leaders from the members is probably the primary cause of the decline of unionism. Because they are so detached leaders are extremely hestitant to make any move that they feel could expose the lack of support that they fear exists. This fear may be well founded but the lack of action is more damaging than the revelation of a lack of support would be.
A few years back we allowed the government to insitute random drug testing. I was outraged that the unions did nothing, sure they voiced a few words of protest but thats it. Now we have several more intrusive and unjust rules and laws being put in place. By allowing the Random Drug testing to be put in place without real restistance we set the stage for what we are seeing today. With every small unchallenged move they make they continue to grow bolder. Now the government has given themselves the right to remove our means of earning a living without the benifit of due process, soon they will have the right to regulate our earnings, based upon the stockholders "right" to see an ROI and maintaining the airlines "competative position". The Bankruptcy court has become a stopgap means of defrauding workers when all the others means as provided by the RLA fail. S-1327 has duped airline unions into defending a flawed and abused RLA. The carnage continues yet there has, and will not be a cohesive plan of resistance crafted by the old men in D.C or 1700 Broadway other than the failed process of telling members to "sit back, contribute to COPE and let us take care of it". The problem is that WE have to live with the results of their inaction long after they are dead and gone.
Bob
From: Jim Little
To: Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Cindy Winslow ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; James C. Little ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: James C. Little
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:02 AM
Subject: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Thought this would be of some assistance in explaining the process to the members.
Later!
Jim
Director's Update
Directors Update: 02-23-03
In answer to a number of members questions regarding Bankruptcy and the impact on a CBA... OVERVIEW
NORMAL ENVIRONMENT
UNDER CHAPTER 11
All current provisions can be opened, by either mutual agreement or by virtue of Sections II or VI of the Railway Labor Act (RLA) for negotiations or renegotiation of any section or issue with the company
Deal with Judge, whose primary role is to protect the creditors and the corporate entity
In the hands of the stockholders and the management who have a vested interest in the company and a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders
Initially in the hands of the Debtor in possession (current management), with the permission of the creditors and the Judge. After a period of exclusivity (180 days) anyone can propose an alternative plan of reorganization, which could be adopted with the support of the creditors committee. The group(s) or individual(s) providing Debtor-in-Possession (DIP) financing typically extract enormous control in return for the high-risk financing they are providing. This is the natural habitat for "corporate raiders"
All avenues to assure contractual compliance or adherence are available, including grievances and, if necessary for egregious behavior, injunctions or restraining orders.
All grievances and litigation is "stayed" or frozen by the Judge. There is no litigation or grievance process except before the Bankruptcy Judge.
Continue to have the potential value of the instrument or plan
Basically become worthless as common stock and linked equity instruments such as options or warrants have value only after or behind; Priority claims, Secured creditors, Unsecured creditors and then any residual monies would be distributed to common stockholders in a liquidation. More likely is a full restructuring and replacement of all equity instruments.
Vacations and similarly earned and accrued benefits remain a financial obligation to the company
All accrued employee liabilities, including wages earned to date and accrued vacations, furlough pay, etc. are considered unsecured liabilities or claims and pooled with all other unsecured creditors, with the exception that the first $2,000 of employees claims are considered priority claims and take precedence over all other claims
An obligation that is required and protected by various State and Federal laws
Employee claims are secured only to the limits of "Employee priority claims" of a maximum of $2,000 dollars. This would include wages, accrued vacation pay, grievance awards and any other monies due from the corporations. Company must receive permission from the Court to resume paying wages.
Funding compliance required by various Federal laws and would include both payments for Defined Benefit Plans and Defined Contribution Plans
Contributions would cease and resumption subject to the plan of reorganization. The PBGC gets a seat on the creditor's committee by virtue of the funding obligations and has the power to "Distress Terminate" the Plan(s) if their evaluation would show funding insufficient to cover accrued obligations to the level of the PBGC minimums.
Completely negotiable and would become part of the CBA. If in the form of equity, would become part of the capital structure of the company
None
James C. Little
Director Air Transport Division
International Administrative Vice President.
That was a scare tactic by Little under the guise of "information". He left out important points such as the word "onerous". The judge had to determine that the contract was onerous in order to void it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Owens
To: Jim Little ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: James C. Little
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
You left out that once the contract is abrogated we are free to use self help. This is a powerful deterrent for both the Judge and the company to keep them from going too far. If the Union movement had a pair like they do in Europe then perhaps Union workers would not find themselves continually going backwards like we do. If we play by their rules we are destined to lose. But then again people earning six figures usually don't feel an urgency to revolt against injustices that are not perpetrated against them directly. If the union movement was this lethargic since its inception we would still be working 16 hrs a day, with no benefits, along side our children and parents. You are our leaders, the question is where are you leading us? The safe way to submission and slavery or the risky way to financial liberty and justice? We don't want to see the company go bankrupt but by opening our agreements we are saying that management is right, that we are the cause of the state of the industry. Spreading doom and gloom such as this without falling back on the founding principles of unionism such as the withholding of labor, is a tactic that the members should expect from the company not their union. The union should look to improve worker living standards not preserve a good business arrangement between a corporation and a representational organization. To all the Presidents out there, you can take this in and recommend that we cower before the company's threats of bankruptcy, but in two years when the industry has recovered, and your members followed your leadership and gave concessions, all they will remember is that you failed to lead.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Little
To: Bob Owens ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Bob,
I do not disagree in principle, and you raise a good point of adding the self help. Then on the opposite side we need to add PEB. Especially, under this darn administration. Growing up in the UK in a Union household you already know my position on AFL-CIO action or lack of. Bob, where I disagree is that we are playing by our rules. The APA is negotiating and the APFA may be negotiating, but we are NOT. I am also not spreading doom and gloom as you put it. I believe we need to prepare and educate our members. It is not a matter of if the company will file it is when and the timeline is rather short. What I can assure you is that this ATD administration does not take the task at hand lightly, and preservation of our members working rights is our Goal.I cannot speak for all of the Presidents. I will also not agree to any permanent changes, as you know we have been there and done that. I remember when I took over as AA System Coordinator and meeting with the Company to discuss a wage reopener during the time when AA was at the prime earnings. I was told sorry we have an agreement in place! I have no disagreement that we can just say No that is easy, but it is not leading. When we feel strongly about something, we will lead, we will act, even if others are not prepared to join us.
As Always,
Fraternally,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Owens
To: Jim Little ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Jim
With leadership comes with the responsibility of informing those you lead with all the possible outcomes, but it also comes with the responsibility of finding a way to win, leaders should give hope and direction.
If the President tried to impose a PEB, then we have to be returned to the conditions prior to the dispute, or status quo. If the status quo is not restored I would expect the Union to disregard the PEB upon moral principle since the PEB is based upon the RLA and all of the restrictions on self help are centered around the maintenance of the status quo. If the Bankruptcy Judge imposed changes-upon the companies request, then the judge by his ruling would have brought us straight to the self help step of the process. A PEB should be ignored if the self help is in response to court ordered concessions. Clearly a PEB issued in conjunction with court imposed concessions violates the intent of the RLA and to tolerate such a flagrant injustice by obedient submission just invites more abuse from the industry and the corporate controlled government.
Our members need to be lead. They need to be informed of what faces us and they need to be told to prepare to resist. We know that the government is clearly on the side of the corporations, this is not a new development. The government has been under such control for a long time however we have one thing in our favor, the corporate/government alliance hates disruptions. In fact, historically government reforms have only come when the threat of disruption becomes obvious and imminent.The old men in D.C. and 1700 Broadway will never lead any disruption. They are too old and have been beaten for so long that to them a stalemate is considered a great victory. Technically you work for 1700 Broadway and your ability or authority to lead us is limited. You will need a mandate from the locals that they will not recognize any replacement that the old men should send should you lead us to resist PEBs or injunctions. After the spectacle I saw this last December where Local 100 was fighting for such basic rights such as disciplinary hearings done on company time and the way Sonny failed to put political differences aside and abandoned these members I am convinced that no matter how bad things get the old men will never lead us in battle. We will be told to "live to fight another day, when in reality it is "live to surrender another day". In closing I will quote from a memorial to a man who I'm sure you are familiar with " The great appear great because we are on our knees. Let us rise!
Mourn not the dead that in the cool earth lie-
Dust unto dust-
The calm, sweet earth that mothers all who die
As all men must...
But rather mourn the apathetic throng-
The cowed and the meek-
Who see the world's great anguish and its wrong
And dare not speak!
Ralph Chaplin
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Little
To: Bob Owens ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Bob,
I do agree we should take a stand and I am not shy in that arena.Where I am disappointed is the lack of involvement by the AFL on an industry impact.You are so wrong about Local 100. We TWU International offered assistance a number of times, We have correspondence to that fact. It was under the Locals request that Sonny did not intervene. I believe we should have! We can debate the perception, but the facts are there. One cannot believe everything that is written in the newspapers. I believe they try to sensationalize.
Cheer up! The worst is yet to come!"
~ Mark Twain
Later!
Jim
Notice how Jim thinks its a big joke. Cheer up, the worst is yet to come! Yes, it did get worse for all of us but not for Little, he got a raise and a promotion!
Original Message -----
From: Bob Owens
To: Jim Little ; Alex Garcia ; Bobby Gless ; Chuck Schalk ; Curtis Gentry ; Don Videtich ; Duke Hingley ; Garry Drummond ; Gary G. Peterson ; Jack Maddish ; Jeff Ortegren ; Jim Brinker ; Joe Gordon ; John Conley ; John Orlando ; John Plowman ; Keno Carr ; Mark Rasco ; Mike Chiafolo ; Pat Noonan ; Paul Cassidy ; Paul McCormick ; Randy McDonald ; Rick Rodriquez ; Russ Bataglia ; Tim Gillespie ; Todd Woodward
Cc: Robert Gless ; John Conley ; Gary Yingst
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Overview of bankruptcy procedings.
Jim;
Your disappointment at the AFL is justified but it should not be surprising. The old men have no fight, all they can do is make speeches. I remember talking with an elderly friend of the family once, he was in his 90s but had the demeanor of a 20 year old. He used to tell a lot of dirty jokes. My brother asked him if he still thought about getting laid, he said yea he still thought about it but the heart medication made it impossible. So even though he could not do it he still talked about it. That's what the labor movement faces, its led by a bunch of old men who will talk about the struggle but the biggest struggle they will engage in is getting up out of their chairs. They will never call for action. I respect the elderly, I respect their wisdom and I believe that there is a valued place in society for them, I don't think that they should be warehoused until they die but I don't think that they should be in command of a movement that has been in constant retreat for over two decades. Obviously their strategy is not working and for the good of us all they should step aside.Their experience is one of constant retreat. When is the last time we saw any real mobilization on their part? They are too cautious and are totally committed,upon the advice of counsel and their lobbyists, to work within the system. A system that even they admit is hopelessly biased against us. Their only concern is trying to boost up the numbers of members. They have been off the floor and cooped up in their ivory towers too long. What airline did Kerrigan work for? Answer, an airline that went out of business over 10 years ago, and the equipment that he is familiar with are consigned to history books and museums. If these men truly loved the movement then they would know that its time to step aside.
A couple of years back Koziatek yourself and I had lunch down in Dallas. I came down to get copies of the contract. During the discussion at lunch Koziatek remarked that while workers at NY might strike that the rest of the system never would. I replied that if that was the case that it was due to the leadership of the union not the makup of the membership. Ed had no faith in the membership and avoided contact with them. He is not a unique case, I believe that many union leaders feel this way. They may truly want what is good for the members but they have little faith in them. Leaders that feel this way are leaders who lack self confidence. The detachment of the leaders from the members is probably the primary cause of the decline of unionism. Because they are so detached leaders are extremely hestitant to make any move that they feel could expose the lack of support that they fear exists. This fear may be well founded but the lack of action is more damaging than the revelation of a lack of support would be.
A few years back we allowed the government to insitute random drug testing. I was outraged that the unions did nothing, sure they voiced a few words of protest but thats it. Now we have several more intrusive and unjust rules and laws being put in place. By allowing the Random Drug testing to be put in place without real restistance we set the stage for what we are seeing today. With every small unchallenged move they make they continue to grow bolder. Now the government has given themselves the right to remove our means of earning a living without the benifit of due process, soon they will have the right to regulate our earnings, based upon the stockholders "right" to see an ROI and maintaining the airlines "competative position". The Bankruptcy court has become a stopgap means of defrauding workers when all the others means as provided by the RLA fail. S-1327 has duped airline unions into defending a flawed and abused RLA. The carnage continues yet there has, and will not be a cohesive plan of resistance crafted by the old men in D.C or 1700 Broadway other than the failed process of telling members to "sit back, contribute to COPE and let us take care of it". The problem is that WE have to live with the results of their inaction long after they are dead and gone.
Bob
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
Bob, everyone must remember that little is the one that told me that NWA AMT's fight when they were battling for better wages was not our fight.
little is a person who is not an A&P, who has not taken a pay cut and is not elected by his full ATD membership. This person knows nothing about leadership or fighting. He says he grew up in the UK and knows about unions that fight? He must have forgotten how a very long time ago.
How many times must USAir & UAL keep going back for concessions? How many times will the twu accept concessions "without further ratification"?
The twu... an organization that is dying.
little is a person who is not an A&P, who has not taken a pay cut and is not elected by his full ATD membership. This person knows nothing about leadership or fighting. He says he grew up in the UK and knows about unions that fight? He must have forgotten how a very long time ago.
How many times must USAir & UAL keep going back for concessions? How many times will the twu accept concessions "without further ratification"?
The twu... an organization that is dying.
TIME FOR CHANGE
Veteran
No matter what is said Drippy still believes the twu is the only answer.
The sad part is we are in this situation because of the twu.
TIME FOR CHANGE
Veteran
Now that has got to make you laugh out loud HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
TIME FOR CHANGE
Veteran
What he really means is we will get them next time
Drippy Quill
Senior
- Sep 11, 2003
- 262
- 0
Hey Owens...imagine Jim Little responding with " Let's do a wildcat!" and then you post it as you do his other e-mails...can you spell law suit dummie?
I have never seen, or heard of, a savy union leader state. or post, any words of retaliation that would open their union up to lidigation...seems Little knows your ways Booby...he just a bit quicker and smarter than you....HAHAHA!!!
I have never seen, or heard of, a savy union leader state. or post, any words of retaliation that would open their union up to lidigation...seems Little knows your ways Booby...he just a bit quicker and smarter than you....HAHAHA!!!
Hackman
Veteran
- Sep 30, 2003
- 3,997
- 892
- Banned
- #27
He sure is smart. He's making 200 grand a year and his members are taking it in the arse. Only thing though Dippy, his union is going to be voted out next year, so I hope the sellout enjoys his high pay and payoffs from the company for a few months.Drippy Quill said:
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
Drippy Quill said:
You are just use to having your unelected atd "leaders" say that a full revote will be held only not to get to revote. I guess you are use to having your unelected atd "leaders" lie to you.
TIME FOR CHANGE
Veteran
Like I said strikes are illegal but you have all the answers drippy but you post none of them.
All you want is a job that will pay you enough to stay and keep the Status Quo a true fine example of a twu member keep up the good work.
