Overspeed
Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2011
- Messages
- 3,245
- Reaction score
- 1,065
But what will I do with all that spare time?
TWU negotiations.........what?
- Thread starter Chuck Schalk
- Start date
But what will I do with all that spare time?
June 13, 2008
“Dont grant more concesssions now because either way it wont protect you any more than prior concessions protected those who went BK.”
Hmm, havent you been claiming that I said that BK was just a bluff? Well that statement shows that I acknowledged that BK was a possibility now wouldnt it? Another one of your claims debunked. Time to make up a new alias?
“AA still has the money. Rumor is they offered $42 an hour if we would agree to allowing them to have 20% LSMs and part timers to replace full time A&Ps on the line.”
Bob says don’t give up on anything. Even starts setting the expectation that the Company is considering giving Southwest wages. WRONG MCT's are keeping their pay raise.
I wrote that about us? Think you screwed up again, we dont even have LSMs. I did say that a guy from UPS told me that if they wanted to bring heavy checks in house the best that UPS would offer was $42/hr.
September 26, 2008
“Even if we just got everything back we would still be working under a 5 year pay freeze which is in reality a pay cut due to inflation. Restore and more.”
Owens gets ready for his run for President and promises, “Restore and more.” He will say anything to get elected. Boy was he WRONG.
September 30, 2008
“So they could give back every penny and still be in the black $120 million.”
First of all I never made claims about what I would get people in the contract, I've always told my peers that according to Article 47 we are just witnesses. The only real power I have is in pulling back the curtain. The statement is true as far as how much moneyt we lost and the company saved, just because they managed to pisss it away and show losses does not change the fact that we lost all that money, but being the company man you are go ahead and spin it the companys way, after all its what you do and why you do it from behind an alias.
States that AA could give everything back and still make $120 million in 2008. AA has not turned a profit yet. WRONG again.
Your spin once again, read the whole statement and its clear. They could give everything back and they would still have $120 million of ours. Whether or not they show a proifit is up to them.
July 15, 2009
“I could care less if they ever increase the headcount in my Local, I prefer to see my members get more, not to get more members.”
He talks about how to get more money and doesn’t care how many members that will not have jobs. SELFISH
If they were never here then they were never members. You seem to want membership to increase at the expense of wages, I dont. You seem more concerned with dues revenues than wages, why is that?
July 21, 2009
“Last year they lost billions but they still "found" money for Executive bonuses. If they can find the money for that then they can find the money for us.”
Bob doesn’t understand that “bonuses” are mostly made up of stock options. It is not money that gets given to management out of AMR bank accounts. Bob makes statements that there is more “…money for us.” Again, those bonuses were not cash out of the AA treasury. I don't agree AMR management should had received any bonuses however.
Sure defending management again, with the ineffectual caveat at the end.
October 8, 2009
“Keep in mind this is the company's first counter, it still sucks but AA continues to demand more concessions and we keep moving closer to the company! Dont blame me, I warned that this would happen, just make sure you vote NO. Like I said, let our brothers and sisters at Continental fight for the profession just like our brothers and sisters at NWA did in 2001. We waited this long, why cut off Continentals chances of getting a better deal by settling for the concessionary piece of crap thats on the table now?”
Bob discussing negotiating tactics and tells members to vote NO and hasn’t even brought a deal forward yet. Suggests that we let CO settle first and then we will have a batter baseline to work from. That happened now what?
What happened was the International was able to convince enough members of the committee to keep putting off asking for a release until the company, having not reached a deal with the pilots, ran into C-11. If we had asked for our release back in April when I first made the motion we probably would have had a deal in place that at least mirrored Continentals months before AA filed. Many of the procrastinators are now gone, but it was too late to change the outcome.
January 11, 2010
“Do we sit back and let all the other corporations that feed off the airlines take everything, thus providing AA with the excuse that there's nothing less for us or simply grab as much as we can regardless of what the airline says they can afford to pay? I say grab whatever we can get.”
Stated before we should get top pay now says, “…grab whatever we can get.” What is it? Top pay of whatever we can get?
What we can get depends on what we are willling to do to get it. If not then we move on.
May 17, 2010
“Instead of just accepting this because you dont trust your union reject it, prove to the International, the Company and some of your representatives that you arent a bunch of sheep willing to accept whatever they throw at you. VOTE NO!!”
After the M&R TA is approved for a membership vote, Owens recommends a no vote because he believes there is more money to be had. WRONG
Went over that a hundred times, no point in doing it again.
November 26, 2010
“The OH vs the line came long before the AA vs TWA BS, maybe you didnt realize it but you had the same thing at TWA, because like Tulsa you could afford to ignore the needs of the line out there in the low cost heartland.”
“The TA was a non offer to the line but an all out attack on the bases, for many years the Tulsa base gave AA a huge cost advantage over all their competitors. They could always count on Tulsa to give AA the lowest total costs in the industry.”
“From what I've read a rival to the IBT for the mechanics at UAL materialized in Denver two weeks ago as well. That will undoubtably put pressure on the IBT to get them a better deal. They have to try and explain why an A&P at UPS needs more than $46.99 but an A&P at UAL and CAL should settle for $36/hr. $10/hr is simply too big of a difference to be pawned off as "Apples and Oranges", they have to basically convince the UAL guys that they are Pintos and the UPS guys are Lincolns.”
Owens again setting the expectation that AMTs should get more than $36/hourly and more like $46.99 at UPS.
Thats your spin.
December 8, 2010
“We need to bring balance between the company and the union, last time they took and only took, this time they have to give and only give.”
After the failed TA, which he recommended a no vote on, Bob makes promises that we can get more now.
Where is there a promise? Note the word "We". Nowhere do you see "I".
March 14, 2011
“Under the proposal a BASE AMT working days would max out at $39.83. What you earn would vary depending on where and when you work. Work midnights you get $2.33, which is still less than the standard 10% that most night shift workers get. Work on the Line or weekends in the base and you get $0.55 more on top of that. Live in a high cost city and you can get as much as $1.25 more.”
The failed TA would provide thousands of AMTs in the Bases with near top pay for overhaul mechanics. Bob now throws out a number of $39.83 when he has been told that MROs pay around $25 top out. The airlines he quotes as paying $40 plus have less than half the number of AMTs that AA has and outsource the rest of the work. He never says that.
"He has been told"Once agin you cite things that you claim happened in negotiations. How would you know what I've been told? The fact is that oour base guys do not work for an MRO, they work for an airline. I've never denied that other carriers outsource a lot of their maintenence, in fact I've acknowledged it many many times despite another false claim by you, you dont like the reason why I say they do, because they could not compete with AA who had just given a 25% paycut outside of BK and already had put in a low paid mechanic scheme called OSMs back in 1995 (formerly SRP).
March 19, 2011
“We should plan on getting to the $50/hr mark within the next five years or before they use the shortage to push through FAR 66.”
Now Bob says let’s shoot for $50 by 2016 and says the FARs will change. Swami Bob has not been accurate yet, but why not? Let’s get $50 Bob, you can do it!
Actually I've been fairly accurate all the back to 2002, when I said that all the unions should get together and block abrogation of the USAIRWAYS deal. I said that if we dont help them we would all end up going through BK and face the same fate. Well thats happened now hasnt it? This is really BK Number 2 for us.
May 14, 2011
“The IBT at UPS was doing it for what, 6 years? They asked to be released, got the support of their pilots union and eventually walked away with $50/hr. The APA and APFA have been in as long as we have.”
Owens throws out $50 at UPS again as if we have the possibility of getting that. Maybe he does think that but the IBT at CO and UA have not been able to get that for their airline members.
Thanks to us.
June 4, 2011
“If we had voted YES we would still be making less than we were in 2003. We proved that we will not settle for the crumbs the company wants to give us after we doubled our productivity and the company saw their revenues soar. We need to get released.”
Yes we would have been making less that 2003 however “doubled our productivity and revenues soar?” Costs have risen faster than revenues which he conveniently ignores.
Argueing on behalf of the copmpany agin I see. We have doubled the amount of revenue per employee, we cant control how AA decides to spend all that extra money. Sure fuel ate up a big portion but wherer did the rest go? Between the labor savings and increased revenue, even after taking out the billions extra for fuel, there was a few billion left over that they had to piss away . The fleet was reduced by a third yet other costs somehow ate up all the savings. Placing the largest aircraft order in history, writing BIG Checks for IT projects (their words not mire) and scores of other capital mintensensive projects was all at their discretion. Why should we pay for all that on top of doubling the productivity?
June 28, 2011
“We are looking for a top pay of around $44. That would be a guy working nights in a high cost area. At the most a few hundred mechanics. The majority would be at $39, with around 1200 OSMs way below that. I havent figured out what the weighted average would be but my guess is around $40/hr. Thats $5/hr less than SWA and $10/hr less than UPS.”
Now Bob says we are looking at $44 an hour. Remember, that is what he is asking and has backed off from getting UPS or Southwest wages. That’s only $8 more an hour than what CO and UA settled for and they outsource more than half their work. He doesn’t tell us that.
More Spin.
July 20, 2011
“I said that we needed to get a better deal and that the TA was totally unacceptable. If another shoddy deal like last years TA gets ramrodded through again then the members must be prepared to do the same thing again, Vote No and be ready to engage in Self Help. The two remining major carriers that pay less than AA are also in mediation, and UAL rejected a deal that was better than ours.”
And UA accepted the same deal with a buyout option. The TA Bob rips actually paid more DOS than UA and CO deals they accepted. The UA deal still has no cap on outsourcing while the AA filed TA Bob recommended we vote no on did.
UAL got a $75k buyout option. They currently earn a lot more than we do, get more Holidays, Vacation and sick time as well.
September 28, 2011
“I believe UPS took five years and they got full backpay as well, plus they top out at $50/hr. I agree these talks have gone on too long, locking ourselves in the room may seem like a good idea but only if there are consequences to not having an agreement when we come out, we have to get released, then we get to hold a gun to their heads instead of them being the only ones with a gun. Its our move and we need to make it. Saying we wont get released is no excuse for not asking for it.”
Bob throwing out a number, $50/hour, and the idea that full retro is possible. Still says that we need to be released yet he knows that the APA and APFA have asked already and the NMB has said there is still movement.
The NMB pulled out of our negotiations in August, historically no party has been denied being released once the NMB pulls out. We had brought a deal back to the members which was rejected, the APA and APFA had not.
October 1, 2011
“The Continental contract was a transitional agreement so that one really doesn't count,the rest are either non-union or open. That leaves two contracts where to compare with, UPS and WN.”
Bob said on October 8, 2009 that we should wait for CO to settle. Now they have and he discounts it as being, “…a transitional agreement so that one really doesn’t count.” Is that how it works? You ignore what doesn’t back your argument? Nice Bob. Were the little kid that sticks his fingers in his ears saying, “La, la, la, I hear nothing,” when someone told you something you didn’t want to hear?
Once again, making the companys arguement again. You left out some very pertinent facts:
On October 8 2009 Continental Airlines was an independant Airline, so yes wait and see was perfectly valid to say wait and see, but on May 3 2010 it was announced that they were merging with UAL. Maybe you missed that but that does change things doesnt it?
October 9, 2011
“Its not so much the difference between the two that concerns me but the total, if the base guys want to keep us all exactly the same and shoot for $50/hr I'm OK with that as well, what I'm against is when guys say "its good enough for us here so it should be good enough for you there".”
“Glad to hear it, we all need to get more than what was in the TA.”
Does Bob think that negotiations is like sitting on Santa’s lap?
No, I think its more like War.
December 15, 2011
“Well you can play whatever games you like with your numbers but let me tell you something, we aint coming out of this with anything less than what UAL settles for, we would rather shut the place down first.”
Well Bob, what the hell happened? BK was a scam, if we get anything less than the 2001 agreement we will be taking a paycut, the pension is safe, outsourcing won’t happen, we are looking at top pay of $44/hour, AA has lots of money, and now according to you, “…we ain’t coming out of this with anything else than what UAL settles for, we would rather shut the place down first.” Bob, they have all of their airframe overhaul outsourced and the DOS wages of the TA are less than the AA failed TA you recommended to VOTE NO on!
[/quote]
We have a TA on wages? They have all the airframes outsourced? Really? To whom? You obviously have information that I dont. Tell us who are they?
“Dont grant more concesssions now because either way it wont protect you any more than prior concessions protected those who went BK.”
Hmm, havent you been claiming that I said that BK was just a bluff? Well that statement shows that I acknowledged that BK was a possibility now wouldnt it? Another one of your claims debunked. Time to make up a new alias?
“AA still has the money. Rumor is they offered $42 an hour if we would agree to allowing them to have 20% LSMs and part timers to replace full time A&Ps on the line.”
Bob says don’t give up on anything. Even starts setting the expectation that the Company is considering giving Southwest wages. WRONG MCT's are keeping their pay raise.
I wrote that about us? Think you screwed up again, we dont even have LSMs. I did say that a guy from UPS told me that if they wanted to bring heavy checks in house the best that UPS would offer was $42/hr.
September 26, 2008
“Even if we just got everything back we would still be working under a 5 year pay freeze which is in reality a pay cut due to inflation. Restore and more.”
Owens gets ready for his run for President and promises, “Restore and more.” He will say anything to get elected. Boy was he WRONG.
September 30, 2008
“So they could give back every penny and still be in the black $120 million.”
First of all I never made claims about what I would get people in the contract, I've always told my peers that according to Article 47 we are just witnesses. The only real power I have is in pulling back the curtain. The statement is true as far as how much moneyt we lost and the company saved, just because they managed to pisss it away and show losses does not change the fact that we lost all that money, but being the company man you are go ahead and spin it the companys way, after all its what you do and why you do it from behind an alias.
States that AA could give everything back and still make $120 million in 2008. AA has not turned a profit yet. WRONG again.
Your spin once again, read the whole statement and its clear. They could give everything back and they would still have $120 million of ours. Whether or not they show a proifit is up to them.
July 15, 2009
“I could care less if they ever increase the headcount in my Local, I prefer to see my members get more, not to get more members.”
He talks about how to get more money and doesn’t care how many members that will not have jobs. SELFISH
If they were never here then they were never members. You seem to want membership to increase at the expense of wages, I dont. You seem more concerned with dues revenues than wages, why is that?
July 21, 2009
“Last year they lost billions but they still "found" money for Executive bonuses. If they can find the money for that then they can find the money for us.”
Bob doesn’t understand that “bonuses” are mostly made up of stock options. It is not money that gets given to management out of AMR bank accounts. Bob makes statements that there is more “…money for us.” Again, those bonuses were not cash out of the AA treasury. I don't agree AMR management should had received any bonuses however.
Sure defending management again, with the ineffectual caveat at the end.
October 8, 2009
“Keep in mind this is the company's first counter, it still sucks but AA continues to demand more concessions and we keep moving closer to the company! Dont blame me, I warned that this would happen, just make sure you vote NO. Like I said, let our brothers and sisters at Continental fight for the profession just like our brothers and sisters at NWA did in 2001. We waited this long, why cut off Continentals chances of getting a better deal by settling for the concessionary piece of crap thats on the table now?”
Bob discussing negotiating tactics and tells members to vote NO and hasn’t even brought a deal forward yet. Suggests that we let CO settle first and then we will have a batter baseline to work from. That happened now what?
What happened was the International was able to convince enough members of the committee to keep putting off asking for a release until the company, having not reached a deal with the pilots, ran into C-11. If we had asked for our release back in April when I first made the motion we probably would have had a deal in place that at least mirrored Continentals months before AA filed. Many of the procrastinators are now gone, but it was too late to change the outcome.
January 11, 2010
“Do we sit back and let all the other corporations that feed off the airlines take everything, thus providing AA with the excuse that there's nothing less for us or simply grab as much as we can regardless of what the airline says they can afford to pay? I say grab whatever we can get.”
Stated before we should get top pay now says, “…grab whatever we can get.” What is it? Top pay of whatever we can get?
What we can get depends on what we are willling to do to get it. If not then we move on.
May 17, 2010
“Instead of just accepting this because you dont trust your union reject it, prove to the International, the Company and some of your representatives that you arent a bunch of sheep willing to accept whatever they throw at you. VOTE NO!!”
After the M&R TA is approved for a membership vote, Owens recommends a no vote because he believes there is more money to be had. WRONG
Went over that a hundred times, no point in doing it again.
November 26, 2010
“The OH vs the line came long before the AA vs TWA BS, maybe you didnt realize it but you had the same thing at TWA, because like Tulsa you could afford to ignore the needs of the line out there in the low cost heartland.”
“The TA was a non offer to the line but an all out attack on the bases, for many years the Tulsa base gave AA a huge cost advantage over all their competitors. They could always count on Tulsa to give AA the lowest total costs in the industry.”
“From what I've read a rival to the IBT for the mechanics at UAL materialized in Denver two weeks ago as well. That will undoubtably put pressure on the IBT to get them a better deal. They have to try and explain why an A&P at UPS needs more than $46.99 but an A&P at UAL and CAL should settle for $36/hr. $10/hr is simply too big of a difference to be pawned off as "Apples and Oranges", they have to basically convince the UAL guys that they are Pintos and the UPS guys are Lincolns.”
Owens again setting the expectation that AMTs should get more than $36/hourly and more like $46.99 at UPS.
Thats your spin.
December 8, 2010
“We need to bring balance between the company and the union, last time they took and only took, this time they have to give and only give.”
After the failed TA, which he recommended a no vote on, Bob makes promises that we can get more now.
Where is there a promise? Note the word "We". Nowhere do you see "I".
March 14, 2011
“Under the proposal a BASE AMT working days would max out at $39.83. What you earn would vary depending on where and when you work. Work midnights you get $2.33, which is still less than the standard 10% that most night shift workers get. Work on the Line or weekends in the base and you get $0.55 more on top of that. Live in a high cost city and you can get as much as $1.25 more.”
The failed TA would provide thousands of AMTs in the Bases with near top pay for overhaul mechanics. Bob now throws out a number of $39.83 when he has been told that MROs pay around $25 top out. The airlines he quotes as paying $40 plus have less than half the number of AMTs that AA has and outsource the rest of the work. He never says that.
"He has been told"Once agin you cite things that you claim happened in negotiations. How would you know what I've been told? The fact is that oour base guys do not work for an MRO, they work for an airline. I've never denied that other carriers outsource a lot of their maintenence, in fact I've acknowledged it many many times despite another false claim by you, you dont like the reason why I say they do, because they could not compete with AA who had just given a 25% paycut outside of BK and already had put in a low paid mechanic scheme called OSMs back in 1995 (formerly SRP).
March 19, 2011
“We should plan on getting to the $50/hr mark within the next five years or before they use the shortage to push through FAR 66.”
Now Bob says let’s shoot for $50 by 2016 and says the FARs will change. Swami Bob has not been accurate yet, but why not? Let’s get $50 Bob, you can do it!
Actually I've been fairly accurate all the back to 2002, when I said that all the unions should get together and block abrogation of the USAIRWAYS deal. I said that if we dont help them we would all end up going through BK and face the same fate. Well thats happened now hasnt it? This is really BK Number 2 for us.
May 14, 2011
“The IBT at UPS was doing it for what, 6 years? They asked to be released, got the support of their pilots union and eventually walked away with $50/hr. The APA and APFA have been in as long as we have.”
Owens throws out $50 at UPS again as if we have the possibility of getting that. Maybe he does think that but the IBT at CO and UA have not been able to get that for their airline members.
Thanks to us.
June 4, 2011
“If we had voted YES we would still be making less than we were in 2003. We proved that we will not settle for the crumbs the company wants to give us after we doubled our productivity and the company saw their revenues soar. We need to get released.”
Yes we would have been making less that 2003 however “doubled our productivity and revenues soar?” Costs have risen faster than revenues which he conveniently ignores.
Argueing on behalf of the copmpany agin I see. We have doubled the amount of revenue per employee, we cant control how AA decides to spend all that extra money. Sure fuel ate up a big portion but wherer did the rest go? Between the labor savings and increased revenue, even after taking out the billions extra for fuel, there was a few billion left over that they had to piss away . The fleet was reduced by a third yet other costs somehow ate up all the savings. Placing the largest aircraft order in history, writing BIG Checks for IT projects (their words not mire) and scores of other capital mintensensive projects was all at their discretion. Why should we pay for all that on top of doubling the productivity?
June 28, 2011
“We are looking for a top pay of around $44. That would be a guy working nights in a high cost area. At the most a few hundred mechanics. The majority would be at $39, with around 1200 OSMs way below that. I havent figured out what the weighted average would be but my guess is around $40/hr. Thats $5/hr less than SWA and $10/hr less than UPS.”
Now Bob says we are looking at $44 an hour. Remember, that is what he is asking and has backed off from getting UPS or Southwest wages. That’s only $8 more an hour than what CO and UA settled for and they outsource more than half their work. He doesn’t tell us that.
More Spin.
July 20, 2011
“I said that we needed to get a better deal and that the TA was totally unacceptable. If another shoddy deal like last years TA gets ramrodded through again then the members must be prepared to do the same thing again, Vote No and be ready to engage in Self Help. The two remining major carriers that pay less than AA are also in mediation, and UAL rejected a deal that was better than ours.”
And UA accepted the same deal with a buyout option. The TA Bob rips actually paid more DOS than UA and CO deals they accepted. The UA deal still has no cap on outsourcing while the AA filed TA Bob recommended we vote no on did.
UAL got a $75k buyout option. They currently earn a lot more than we do, get more Holidays, Vacation and sick time as well.
September 28, 2011
“I believe UPS took five years and they got full backpay as well, plus they top out at $50/hr. I agree these talks have gone on too long, locking ourselves in the room may seem like a good idea but only if there are consequences to not having an agreement when we come out, we have to get released, then we get to hold a gun to their heads instead of them being the only ones with a gun. Its our move and we need to make it. Saying we wont get released is no excuse for not asking for it.”
Bob throwing out a number, $50/hour, and the idea that full retro is possible. Still says that we need to be released yet he knows that the APA and APFA have asked already and the NMB has said there is still movement.
The NMB pulled out of our negotiations in August, historically no party has been denied being released once the NMB pulls out. We had brought a deal back to the members which was rejected, the APA and APFA had not.
October 1, 2011
“The Continental contract was a transitional agreement so that one really doesn't count,the rest are either non-union or open. That leaves two contracts where to compare with, UPS and WN.”
Bob said on October 8, 2009 that we should wait for CO to settle. Now they have and he discounts it as being, “…a transitional agreement so that one really doesn’t count.” Is that how it works? You ignore what doesn’t back your argument? Nice Bob. Were the little kid that sticks his fingers in his ears saying, “La, la, la, I hear nothing,” when someone told you something you didn’t want to hear?
Once again, making the companys arguement again. You left out some very pertinent facts:
On October 8 2009 Continental Airlines was an independant Airline, so yes wait and see was perfectly valid to say wait and see, but on May 3 2010 it was announced that they were merging with UAL. Maybe you missed that but that does change things doesnt it?
October 9, 2011
“Its not so much the difference between the two that concerns me but the total, if the base guys want to keep us all exactly the same and shoot for $50/hr I'm OK with that as well, what I'm against is when guys say "its good enough for us here so it should be good enough for you there".”
“Glad to hear it, we all need to get more than what was in the TA.”
Does Bob think that negotiations is like sitting on Santa’s lap?
No, I think its more like War.
December 15, 2011
“Well you can play whatever games you like with your numbers but let me tell you something, we aint coming out of this with anything less than what UAL settles for, we would rather shut the place down first.”
Well Bob, what the hell happened? BK was a scam, if we get anything less than the 2001 agreement we will be taking a paycut, the pension is safe, outsourcing won’t happen, we are looking at top pay of $44/hour, AA has lots of money, and now according to you, “…we ain’t coming out of this with anything else than what UAL settles for, we would rather shut the place down first.” Bob, they have all of their airframe overhaul outsourced and the DOS wages of the TA are less than the AA failed TA you recommended to VOTE NO on!
[/quote]
We have a TA on wages? They have all the airframes outsourced? Really? To whom? You obviously have information that I dont. Tell us who are they?
TWU informer
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2003
- Messages
- 7,550
- Reaction score
- 3,731
And so you don't agree that the workers of the industry should unite and stand against the continued decimation of good jobs?
What kind of "union man" are you anyway?
eolesen
Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 15,959
- Reaction score
- 9,374
Whether or not they're locked into the terms they presented to the unions last month may be a bit fuzzy.
If AA's economic situation has deteriorated, I don't know if they'd be prevented from cutting deeper than originally planned, and issuing a new term sheet. That would in theory also restart the clock on the S.1113C discussions.
AA's labor cost disadvantage went from $600 million to $800 million in a matter of months despite the fact that none of us got raisese, except for the non union workers. More than likely this increase was driven by the pension which means its more of a "book value" than actual cash. Again we would have to look at what competitors pay for outsourced services and the age of their fleets. The fact is that all the information to make an acurate comparasion is not available, or if it is the company will not share it.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2003
- Messages
- 7,550
- Reaction score
- 3,731
Again, does anyone here believe that AA will be allowed a $1 billion cost advantage over the competition without a response from them?
All that will happen is the competition will get matching or trumping concessions either voluntarily or via another trip to BK Court.
Meanwhile, the business degree management and consulting firms keep using the "normal" business model and competition strategies. This farce is proven by the propaganda that claims we will all be happily cashing profit sharing checks in the future, after AA uses this process to increase profits. Maybe so for 12-15 months, but one profit sharing check is all you will see before the competition moves in the same direction.
I doubt any of their training/education included using Bankruptcy Court System as a means of running a business to beat the competition. What is laughable is how Congress passes changes in the law to "protect" union contracts, but yet there is no workers safety net at all in those changes.
All that will happen is the competition will get matching or trumping concessions either voluntarily or via another trip to BK Court.
Meanwhile, the business degree management and consulting firms keep using the "normal" business model and competition strategies. This farce is proven by the propaganda that claims we will all be happily cashing profit sharing checks in the future, after AA uses this process to increase profits. Maybe so for 12-15 months, but one profit sharing check is all you will see before the competition moves in the same direction.
I doubt any of their training/education included using Bankruptcy Court System as a means of running a business to beat the competition. What is laughable is how Congress passes changes in the law to "protect" union contracts, but yet there is no workers safety net at all in those changes.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2003
- Messages
- 7,550
- Reaction score
- 3,731
Bob,
To date, I have yet to see a break down by labor group (including management) of the $600-$800 million cost disadvantage
Has AA ever showed you a break down by labor group? Or is it always just presented in one lump sum grouped together?
bob you seem to have a lot of time to post on here again. Are you still in the negotiations. I thought the company was opening all there books(ha ha). Any way how hard is it to find all these cost comparasion, you guys have been in dallas for weeks now and all we here is how hard you guys are working, what s really going on? Saved the pensions? who is really going to benefit from that around here ,not like any of us are going to be able to retire at 55 ever!!!
aleast get the contract to become renewable when aa leaves bk. 6 years is wrong on every level and 1.5 % pay raise after one more year. All my bills are going up faster than ever!!1
aleast get the contract to become renewable when aa leaves bk. 6 years is wrong on every level and 1.5 % pay raise after one more year. All my bills are going up faster than ever!!1
eolesen
Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 15,959
- Reaction score
- 9,374
I don't know that UA or DL will be in a position to do much on the labor cost side if AA gets their costs down.
A UA fourth bankruptcy (CO already had two, and UA one) is certainly possible, but I would't say probable. There's not that much left to cut aside from confirming scope. They've already undone maintenance and wages, and the CO pilot contract is just a step above what the guys at the regionals have as far as working conditions go.
A third DL bankruptcy (DL and NW each had one) is even less likely.
I'd expect to see WN file before either UA or DL does.
Then again, the whole discussion of them needing to respond to AA assumes that AA makes it out of bankruptcy. I'd given you guys a 50/50 chance of emerging whole, but those odds shift every day all of the parties involved are busy doing everything except figuring out what type of airline AA needs to be after it emerges from bankruptcy.
If it emerges.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2003
- Messages
- 7,550
- Reaction score
- 3,731
They will get what they deserve. And there is nothing I can do one way or the other at this point.
Overspeed
Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2011
- Messages
- 3,245
- Reaction score
- 1,065
We have a TA on wages? They have all the airframes outsourced? Really? To whom? You obviously have information that I dont. Tell us who are they?
"They" is UA and CO.
I guess somebody is posting under your name because look back in the post like I did. I cut and paste all this from your posts. Call it spin but you said those words. I expected you would refuse accountability. Your never wrong.
I proved my point, your in over your head.
"They" is UA and CO.
I guess somebody is posting under your name because look back in the post like I did. I cut and paste all this from your posts. Call it spin but you said those words. I expected you would refuse accountability. Your never wrong.
I proved my point, your in over your head.
Overspeed
Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2011
- Messages
- 3,245
- Reaction score
- 1,065
Yes I do agree the workers should unite. We should have done that a long time ago. Now we are in the fight for ourselves at AA. We did not rally around those that were before us. Labor needs a long term solution. Telling the company to shove it and hope our brothers and sisters everywhere else will come to our aid is kind of dreaming in my opinion.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2003
- Messages
- 7,550
- Reaction score
- 3,731
It is not about OUR aid, it about theirs, and some that are not even here yet.
Overspeed
Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2011
- Messages
- 3,245
- Reaction score
- 1,065
Bob on BK
May 20, 2008
“…but are the shareholders willing to allow management to lose all their money instead of coming to a fair agreement with the employees whose sacrifice saved them from watching their shares liquidated…”
Bob is certain that bankruptcy will never happen because the shareholders won’t let management do that. WRONG.
December 10, 2008
“…I think we've all had enough of sacrificing for plans that have no benifit for us. If $24 billion a year isnt enough revenue and they cant make a go of it without our charity then let them go C-11 or 7.”
Now says that if the Company can’t get their act together, then let AA go Chapter 11 or 7.
March 7, 2009
“Its like the guy crying poverty who pulls into his driveway with a brand new car. AA has ordered billions worth of new airplanes but they are cryaing poverty to their workers.”
Bob is certain that AA is lying. In his opinion potential BK companies don’t reinvest in themselves. He hasn’t paid attention to the many other BK airlines that have since bought new aircraft and equipment. It happens in the real world but not Bob’s world.
June 20, 2009
“While the ATD keeps talking BK we dont hear any such talk from the company, instead we hear about new airplane orders. A contract in place lowers the risks for creditors and AA can get better rates. Billions will be borrowed to buy new airplanes, a 1% drop in the Intrest rate on $1 billion is $10 million saved. Depending on how much and how long the loan is for they could save hundreds of millions by having contracts in place.”
Does not believe the factual information or advice of those “in-the-know” and alludes to BK being nothing but a manipulation tactic from the International.
July 1, 2009
“Thats bull. First of all by lowering our demands we screwed ourselves if the company does go BK and whether of not they go BK has nothing to do woth us, the pilots may have some effect due to their big pensions but us, no way”
“Right now we are already on the lower end of the scale for majors. By 2011 we will likely be number 5 or 6 in pay with an unprecidented gap between us and the top. By 2011 we will lag SWA, the number two in pay for aircraft mechanics.”
States AA going to BK is “bull” and that the committee is lowering their demands giving in to fear. As we all know, BK was not “bull” Bob but what you said was bull.
July 26, 2009
“One thing thats guaranteed is that they would have a new crisis in place to justify not paying us.”
Bob again raises his belief, not based in fact, is that BK is a manufactured crisis.
October 9, 2009
“If for some reason the company did reject our concessionary offer I would be in favor of being released, then real negotiations could begin. Do you really think that Citibank and all those others who just dumped billions into AA are going to let AA go BK through a strike? AA will have to get serious about a deal once the clock starts ticking, their creditors will demand it. AA would be stupid to try and shoot for bottom pay, unlike 2005 there isnt a supply of mechanics out there and there isnt a surpluss of seats out there either.”
Again states that BK is not going to happen because Citibank and other investors won’t let it happen. WRONG
November 5, 2009
“I dont know how to say this any clearer than this ' I DO NOT CARE ABOUT AA'S FINANCIAL PROBLEMS ANYMORE, I WANT MY MONEY OR I WOULD RATHER SEE THEM GO AWAY SO THOSE CARRIERS THAT KNOW HOW TO RUN A BUSINESS AND PAY THEIR WORKERS WILL HAVE ROOM TO EXPAND AND HIRE US.”
Owens says he would, “…rather see them (AA) go away…,” in BK. Well “they” won’t but many union members will.
February 28, 2010
“The point is they arent the only ones who can make threats. We need to recognize that.”
Bob responds to concerns about BK, losing the pension, and outsourcing. Says the Company is making threats.
December 2, 2010
“Bankruptcy? What would they have to gain by it that they havent already taken? The Pension? They save money with the DBP at the moment.”
Bob discounting the BK possibility again. Every other airline has frozen or terminated the pension to reduce their future financial liability but Bob says the DB plan “saves” money. NOT ENTIRELY TRUE AGAIN. Twist and spin, let’s everybody do the Owens dance!
April 23, 2011
“While I would not be suprised if some in the International tried to play up the inevitable doom and gloom show (some still love to throw out the specter of "BK") I'm not too concerned with anything they decide to put in their little slide show. The group of guys that are in there now have ignored them in the past and will do so again.”
Bob dismisses the talk of BK as fear tactic again. Says he isn’t concerned about, “…their little slide show.” I am so glad Bob is paying attention, but only to HIS facts.
May 6, 2011
“So why should we be afraid of BK? All we have is a promise, a promise like the Supplimental Medical that the company collected and pocketed after 20 years. Have you ever met anyone who collected from that? You'd have a better chance coming across a LOTTO winner than an active employee who got a payout from the Supplimental Medical. While our pension, which is legally and woefully underfunded thanks to our own lobbying efforts, is still a promise that the company uses to drive down wages in the here and now our peers have been getting direct contributions to their 401K plans. Real money that the company cant touch once its there. Hell all BK could do is take away our pension and give us $6.15 an hour more in the here and now!”
“So the answer is not only are we worse off than our peers at other carriers that have never filed BK but we are worse off than nearly all those that have.”
“Even if as the company threatened we have to come back in 6 months and renegotiate it under BK.”
“The company would not realize savings from maint in BK, our peers earn less and our pension costs the company less in the here and now than the DC plans.”
“We have to go for the money, threats or no threats.”
Earlier Bob said BK was a fear tactic, now he acknowledges it but says its not that bad. “Hell all BK could do is take away our pensions and give us $6.15 an hour more…,” he says. Really? Has that happened in BK? Has anyone gotten a raise in BK? NO. But then he ends with it’s just a threat anyway. He can’t make up his mind.
August 31, 2011
“Well the company has been threatening to file BK since 2003. I would think they would have done so prior to amassing $5 billion in cash and paying off half their debt. Normally you build up debt and burn cash before filing BK.”
“Normally?” Bob is now an expert on BKs? Okay.
September 14, 2011
“I think the company has told the unions that if any of them asks for and gets a release then they will file. To me, after eight years of living under the threat I say lets go. Why give them another concessionary deal only to find them using the same threat in another five years?”
“So let us set the rate that the bankrupt carriers can follow as their first negotiated agreement after Bankruptcy based on our historical position between the Freighters like UPS and the LCCs like WN and JB, any disadvantage that AA has would be short lived. Our brothers and Sisters at UAL already rejected their deal, lets give them some sort of a challenge as far as something to top. Lets see which union can come out on top, the TWU, the IBT(UAL) or the IAM(USAIR).”
Okay now what is it? BK is a threat or BS? He said on June 20, 2009 that the only person that has mentioned BK was the ATD. Now he says he has been hearing it for eight years. Bob wanted to set the standard for airlines negotiating their first contract out of BK. Now we will be following their (UA, NW, and US) example of what you get in BK and following them. I thought Bob was against pattern bargaining? Oh, my mistake, he is apparently in favor of pattern BK.
October 1, 2011
“I think BK is a scam.”
“What I am an advocate of is not panicing every time the company throws it out there. I feel we were wrong to accept concessions in 2003 and should have held our ground and that by doing what we did we doomed in house OH at all AAs competitors.”
“We have no control over BK and we are not a big enough component in the equation where what we do would have any influence over that decision anyway. In other words they dont stand to gain much in BK from us.”
“I think BK is a scam.” Yes Bob, it’s a scam and AA doesn’t, “…stand to gain much from us.” How come in every other airline BK maintenance did suffer massive cuts in every area? You are in denial Bob.
October 16, 2011
“Now comes the BK scare tactics, no doubt the International will barrage the Presidents Council this week with doom and gloom about BK, the fact is that we have no control over that anyway and the $ 190 million a year we were asking for isn't enough to make a trip to BK worth it.”
“Maybe, if they do file, (which I don't think they will) we will be the ones to do it, then again if they do file the pilots will be the ones with the most to lose so we could ride on their coat tails, but no real union would tolerate allowing a Judge to order their members to work under terms they did not negotiate and were set with only the companies interests in mind. “
Yes that’s right. “Now comes the BK scare tactics…,” and, “…the $190 million a year we were asking for isn’t enough to make a trip to BK worth it.” Bob you called it, BK won’t be happening. “Maybe, if they do file, (which I don’t think they will)…,” called it again. And the statement, “…no real union would tolerate allowing a Judge to order their members to work under terms they did not negotiate…,” is classic. Bob what are you planning on?
October 27, 2011
“Look around, wake up people, AA has plenty of money for everything, except the employees.”
“Wake up people, AA has plenty of money…,” which shows you that Bob doesn’t understand BK Chapter 11. You can file BK and restructure your debts and other financial obligations and have money. The goal was to make the business work and pay off the secured creditors for the AMR BOD, not pay the employees and other unsecured creditors. Wake up Bob, you got caught dreaming in your sleep again.
November 12, 2011
“As we keep hearning about BK I have to ask "what exactly do you think will happen to us?"”
“Our peers at other carriers did not Lose their pensions, their pensions were frozen and in nearly all cases an alternative DC pension was put in place.”
“We would lose Overhaul. Well, the company has never ever proposed that so why would they go for it in BK? Where would they send all that work anyway?”
"We will lose retiree Medical" We stand to make out better in BK than we would by agreeing to what Fleet has in the TA and the company has in their proposals for other groups.”
“The company could impose whatever it wanted in BK. The courts can not impose a new contract, they can allow the company to impose new terms and negotiations continue under the RLA but the question remains as to whether we can resort to self help.”
Bob breaks down BK for us, the one he says is a fear tactic but he distorts the facts again. Yes the other airlines didn’t lose their pensions but they did lose the ability to continue to accrue under the plan prior to BK. The Company has talked about outsourcing constantly, where have you been Bob? Why would they be comparing our costs if they did not have that as a backstop plan if we did not come up with a compromise? We were not losing retiree medical under the TA, only the funding option changed. We voted that plan down and Fleet got a worse deal on retiree medical but BK will be better? The BK court will approve terms on our agreement based on what will allow the Company to meet its commitments and we cannot go to self help if we don’t like the terms the judge approves. Unless Bob can get is to the highest court in the land that is.
May 20, 2008
“…but are the shareholders willing to allow management to lose all their money instead of coming to a fair agreement with the employees whose sacrifice saved them from watching their shares liquidated…”
Bob is certain that bankruptcy will never happen because the shareholders won’t let management do that. WRONG.
December 10, 2008
“…I think we've all had enough of sacrificing for plans that have no benifit for us. If $24 billion a year isnt enough revenue and they cant make a go of it without our charity then let them go C-11 or 7.”
Now says that if the Company can’t get their act together, then let AA go Chapter 11 or 7.
March 7, 2009
“Its like the guy crying poverty who pulls into his driveway with a brand new car. AA has ordered billions worth of new airplanes but they are cryaing poverty to their workers.”
Bob is certain that AA is lying. In his opinion potential BK companies don’t reinvest in themselves. He hasn’t paid attention to the many other BK airlines that have since bought new aircraft and equipment. It happens in the real world but not Bob’s world.
June 20, 2009
“While the ATD keeps talking BK we dont hear any such talk from the company, instead we hear about new airplane orders. A contract in place lowers the risks for creditors and AA can get better rates. Billions will be borrowed to buy new airplanes, a 1% drop in the Intrest rate on $1 billion is $10 million saved. Depending on how much and how long the loan is for they could save hundreds of millions by having contracts in place.”
Does not believe the factual information or advice of those “in-the-know” and alludes to BK being nothing but a manipulation tactic from the International.
July 1, 2009
“Thats bull. First of all by lowering our demands we screwed ourselves if the company does go BK and whether of not they go BK has nothing to do woth us, the pilots may have some effect due to their big pensions but us, no way”
“Right now we are already on the lower end of the scale for majors. By 2011 we will likely be number 5 or 6 in pay with an unprecidented gap between us and the top. By 2011 we will lag SWA, the number two in pay for aircraft mechanics.”
States AA going to BK is “bull” and that the committee is lowering their demands giving in to fear. As we all know, BK was not “bull” Bob but what you said was bull.
July 26, 2009
“One thing thats guaranteed is that they would have a new crisis in place to justify not paying us.”
Bob again raises his belief, not based in fact, is that BK is a manufactured crisis.
October 9, 2009
“If for some reason the company did reject our concessionary offer I would be in favor of being released, then real negotiations could begin. Do you really think that Citibank and all those others who just dumped billions into AA are going to let AA go BK through a strike? AA will have to get serious about a deal once the clock starts ticking, their creditors will demand it. AA would be stupid to try and shoot for bottom pay, unlike 2005 there isnt a supply of mechanics out there and there isnt a surpluss of seats out there either.”
Again states that BK is not going to happen because Citibank and other investors won’t let it happen. WRONG
November 5, 2009
“I dont know how to say this any clearer than this ' I DO NOT CARE ABOUT AA'S FINANCIAL PROBLEMS ANYMORE, I WANT MY MONEY OR I WOULD RATHER SEE THEM GO AWAY SO THOSE CARRIERS THAT KNOW HOW TO RUN A BUSINESS AND PAY THEIR WORKERS WILL HAVE ROOM TO EXPAND AND HIRE US.”
Owens says he would, “…rather see them (AA) go away…,” in BK. Well “they” won’t but many union members will.
February 28, 2010
“The point is they arent the only ones who can make threats. We need to recognize that.”
Bob responds to concerns about BK, losing the pension, and outsourcing. Says the Company is making threats.
December 2, 2010
“Bankruptcy? What would they have to gain by it that they havent already taken? The Pension? They save money with the DBP at the moment.”
Bob discounting the BK possibility again. Every other airline has frozen or terminated the pension to reduce their future financial liability but Bob says the DB plan “saves” money. NOT ENTIRELY TRUE AGAIN. Twist and spin, let’s everybody do the Owens dance!
April 23, 2011
“While I would not be suprised if some in the International tried to play up the inevitable doom and gloom show (some still love to throw out the specter of "BK") I'm not too concerned with anything they decide to put in their little slide show. The group of guys that are in there now have ignored them in the past and will do so again.”
Bob dismisses the talk of BK as fear tactic again. Says he isn’t concerned about, “…their little slide show.” I am so glad Bob is paying attention, but only to HIS facts.
May 6, 2011
“So why should we be afraid of BK? All we have is a promise, a promise like the Supplimental Medical that the company collected and pocketed after 20 years. Have you ever met anyone who collected from that? You'd have a better chance coming across a LOTTO winner than an active employee who got a payout from the Supplimental Medical. While our pension, which is legally and woefully underfunded thanks to our own lobbying efforts, is still a promise that the company uses to drive down wages in the here and now our peers have been getting direct contributions to their 401K plans. Real money that the company cant touch once its there. Hell all BK could do is take away our pension and give us $6.15 an hour more in the here and now!”
“So the answer is not only are we worse off than our peers at other carriers that have never filed BK but we are worse off than nearly all those that have.”
“Even if as the company threatened we have to come back in 6 months and renegotiate it under BK.”
“The company would not realize savings from maint in BK, our peers earn less and our pension costs the company less in the here and now than the DC plans.”
“We have to go for the money, threats or no threats.”
Earlier Bob said BK was a fear tactic, now he acknowledges it but says its not that bad. “Hell all BK could do is take away our pensions and give us $6.15 an hour more…,” he says. Really? Has that happened in BK? Has anyone gotten a raise in BK? NO. But then he ends with it’s just a threat anyway. He can’t make up his mind.
August 31, 2011
“Well the company has been threatening to file BK since 2003. I would think they would have done so prior to amassing $5 billion in cash and paying off half their debt. Normally you build up debt and burn cash before filing BK.”
“Normally?” Bob is now an expert on BKs? Okay.
September 14, 2011
“I think the company has told the unions that if any of them asks for and gets a release then they will file. To me, after eight years of living under the threat I say lets go. Why give them another concessionary deal only to find them using the same threat in another five years?”
“So let us set the rate that the bankrupt carriers can follow as their first negotiated agreement after Bankruptcy based on our historical position between the Freighters like UPS and the LCCs like WN and JB, any disadvantage that AA has would be short lived. Our brothers and Sisters at UAL already rejected their deal, lets give them some sort of a challenge as far as something to top. Lets see which union can come out on top, the TWU, the IBT(UAL) or the IAM(USAIR).”
Okay now what is it? BK is a threat or BS? He said on June 20, 2009 that the only person that has mentioned BK was the ATD. Now he says he has been hearing it for eight years. Bob wanted to set the standard for airlines negotiating their first contract out of BK. Now we will be following their (UA, NW, and US) example of what you get in BK and following them. I thought Bob was against pattern bargaining? Oh, my mistake, he is apparently in favor of pattern BK.
October 1, 2011
“I think BK is a scam.”
“What I am an advocate of is not panicing every time the company throws it out there. I feel we were wrong to accept concessions in 2003 and should have held our ground and that by doing what we did we doomed in house OH at all AAs competitors.”
“We have no control over BK and we are not a big enough component in the equation where what we do would have any influence over that decision anyway. In other words they dont stand to gain much in BK from us.”
“I think BK is a scam.” Yes Bob, it’s a scam and AA doesn’t, “…stand to gain much from us.” How come in every other airline BK maintenance did suffer massive cuts in every area? You are in denial Bob.
October 16, 2011
“Now comes the BK scare tactics, no doubt the International will barrage the Presidents Council this week with doom and gloom about BK, the fact is that we have no control over that anyway and the $ 190 million a year we were asking for isn't enough to make a trip to BK worth it.”
“Maybe, if they do file, (which I don't think they will) we will be the ones to do it, then again if they do file the pilots will be the ones with the most to lose so we could ride on their coat tails, but no real union would tolerate allowing a Judge to order their members to work under terms they did not negotiate and were set with only the companies interests in mind. “
Yes that’s right. “Now comes the BK scare tactics…,” and, “…the $190 million a year we were asking for isn’t enough to make a trip to BK worth it.” Bob you called it, BK won’t be happening. “Maybe, if they do file, (which I don’t think they will)…,” called it again. And the statement, “…no real union would tolerate allowing a Judge to order their members to work under terms they did not negotiate…,” is classic. Bob what are you planning on?
October 27, 2011
“Look around, wake up people, AA has plenty of money for everything, except the employees.”
“Wake up people, AA has plenty of money…,” which shows you that Bob doesn’t understand BK Chapter 11. You can file BK and restructure your debts and other financial obligations and have money. The goal was to make the business work and pay off the secured creditors for the AMR BOD, not pay the employees and other unsecured creditors. Wake up Bob, you got caught dreaming in your sleep again.
November 12, 2011
“As we keep hearning about BK I have to ask "what exactly do you think will happen to us?"”
“Our peers at other carriers did not Lose their pensions, their pensions were frozen and in nearly all cases an alternative DC pension was put in place.”
“We would lose Overhaul. Well, the company has never ever proposed that so why would they go for it in BK? Where would they send all that work anyway?”
"We will lose retiree Medical" We stand to make out better in BK than we would by agreeing to what Fleet has in the TA and the company has in their proposals for other groups.”
“The company could impose whatever it wanted in BK. The courts can not impose a new contract, they can allow the company to impose new terms and negotiations continue under the RLA but the question remains as to whether we can resort to self help.”
Bob breaks down BK for us, the one he says is a fear tactic but he distorts the facts again. Yes the other airlines didn’t lose their pensions but they did lose the ability to continue to accrue under the plan prior to BK. The Company has talked about outsourcing constantly, where have you been Bob? Why would they be comparing our costs if they did not have that as a backstop plan if we did not come up with a compromise? We were not losing retiree medical under the TA, only the funding option changed. We voted that plan down and Fleet got a worse deal on retiree medical but BK will be better? The BK court will approve terms on our agreement based on what will allow the Company to meet its commitments and we cannot go to self help if we don’t like the terms the judge approves. Unless Bob can get is to the highest court in the land that is.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2003
- Messages
- 7,550
- Reaction score
- 3,731
Jon McNaughton, a controversial artist who often mixes religion and politics in his work, has released a new painting.
In ‘One Nation Under Socialism’ President Obama holds the U.S. Constitution as it burns
