TWU proposes intense period of negotiations with American Airlines

[FrequentFlierCA]

New terminals absolutely necessary? Hardly. On the one hand management says price is the deciding factor, not amentities nor ambiance. After spending billions of dollars they only ended up with around the same number of gates. People dont choose one airline over another because they have the prettiest terminal.

This customer will say that new terminals and airplanes are, in many cases, essential. I don't want to spend time waiting in dilapidated old buildings only to board a dirty, 20 year old aircraft with cracking leather seats.

 

[Bob Owens]

This customer will say that new terminals and airplanes are, in many cases, essential. I don't want to spend time waiting in dilapidated old buildings only to board a dirty, 20 year old aircraft with cracking leather seats.

Then you should be willing to pay for that luxury and not expect us to pay for it. The fact is management has argued that most customers are NOT willing to even pay for more room between the seats or meals or pillows so pretty terminals would be even lower on the list. Its a waste of money.

 

[eolesen]

I'm still trying to figure out how "you" pay for it, aside from the fact that AA has to spend money to pay rent and fund assets like airplanes, which are entirely necessary to run the core business....

The terminals AA used to occupy at JFK were built for 1950 to 1990 reality. At JFK, both concourses A & B of the old terminal were built before security screening of any type, and with few if any provisions for disabled passengers. Concourses C & D were only marginally better, but still had some serious choke points in terms of passenger flow because they were designed for 1990 load factors.

Trying to incorporate sortation systems, inline bag screening, and other features absolutely necessary in today's TSA environment has been an absolute nightmare at JFK and older facilities.

Where I'll agree with you is the terminals don't need to be outfitted with stainless steel, brushed aluminum, terrazzo floors, etc., and have all the trimmings of a four star resort. Go look at the new Jetblue terminal -- they got all the operational space they needed, but it's outfitted like Motel Six.

But there's no question the JFK terminal needed to be replaced, and no question that the MIA expansion had to take place. Based on my last few flights via LAX, they're not too far behind in terms of real need, either.


And as for real "luxury".... Customers DO pay for that, Bob. Not you. The Admirals Club is funded entirely by membership fees and revenue generated from food & beverage sales, conference room rentals, and other airlines (including oneworld) who contract with AA to provide lounge access to their premium customers.

Likewise with the Flagship Lounge. It's covered thru the premium fare revenue generated by the customers entitled to use the lounge.

Credit Union? They pay rent, too. So do all the retail outlets.

So, exactly what else falls into the "luxury" category that customers should be paying for?

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm still trying to figure out how "you" pay for it, aside from the fact that AA has to spend money to pay rent and fund assets like airplanes, which are entirely necessary to run the core business....

We pay for it because when AA goes out and blows billions of dollars they expect us to make up for the shortfall with pay and benifit cuts thats how.

The terminals AA used to occupy at JFK were built for 1950 to 1990 reality. At JFK, both concourses A & B of the old terminal were built before security screening of any type, and with few if any provisions for disabled passengers. Concourses C & D were only marginally better, but still had some serious choke points in terms of passenger flow because they were designed for 1990 load factors.

These billion dollar terminals were all designed before 9-11 and the choke points still exist.

Trying to incorporate sortation systems, inline bag screening, and other features absolutely necessary in today's TSA environment has been an absolute nightmare at JFK and older facilities.

I guess you havent heard about the problems with the state of the art systems at JFK.

Where I'll agree with you is the terminals don't need to be outfitted with stainless steel, brushed aluminum, terrazzo floors, etc., and have all the trimmings of a four star resort. Go look at the new Jetblue terminal -- they got all the operational space they needed, but it's outfitted like Motel Six.

Finally you are making sense.

But there's no question the JFK terminal needed to be replaced, and no question that the MIA expansion had to take place. Based on my last few flights via LAX, they're not too far behind in terms of real need, either.

Yea well my car needs to be replaced but I cant afford to replace it, unfortunately I dont have the luxury of simply taking the money out of someone elses pocket to get what I need.

And as for real "luxury".... Customers DO pay for that, .

No they dont. Carty even admitted that the first class suites they put in some of the planes would never pay for themselves. All of these absurd expenditures, some highlighted by you, cost AA money and are factors that made the company post losses, then they turned to the employees and demanded that they make up for those losses with pay and benifit cuts. So the workers ended up paying for the luxury terminals and luxury seats. I also doubt that the fees charged to advantage members covers the costs of building and maintaining the facilities. I've heard about how extravagant they went at JFK where even simple things like the hardware for cabinets cost hundreds of dollars instead of $5 or $10.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Oh really? What's the cost of the F suites? And what's the average F fare on routes that fly with them?

My educated guess is that many routes have already paid for themselves. Even if most of the pax in the F suites are upgraders, they are coming from J fares.

 

[FWAAA]

Yea well my car needs to be replaced but I cant afford to replace it, unfortunately I dont have the luxury of simply taking the money out of someone elses pocket to get what I need.

If you were in the business of selling rides in your car at premium prices, you'd figure out a way to replace it, so as to preserve the lucrative premium revenue stream. But since all you do with it is drive back and forth to an hourly job, replacing your car doesn't impact your family's revenue flow.

New planes and fancy first class seats directly affect AA's revenue. AA doesn't sell enough premium fares as it is - and you advocate not trying to attract more of them by offering competitive seats on newer planes?

No they dont. Carty even admitted that the first class suites they put in some of the planes would never pay for themselves. All of these absurd expenditures, some highlighted by you, cost AA money and are factors that made the company post losses, then they turned to the employees and demanded that they make up for those losses with pay and benifit cuts. So the workers ended up paying for the luxury terminals and luxury seats. I also doubt that the fees charged to advantage members covers the costs of building and maintaining the facilities. I've heard about how extravagant they went at JFK where even simple things like the hardware for cabinets cost hundreds of dollars instead of $5 or $10.

Now you're citing Carty the Liar to support your absurd claims. You can't pick and choose quotes from discredited losers, Bob.

New planes, seats and terminals didn't cause losses. If anything, they helped minimize the losses after September 11, 2001. Revenue immediately fell more than 20% yet AA managed to avoid Ch 11 as its revenue recovered faster than many of its competitors. Wonder why that was?

I have no idea what motivates passengers to pay tens of thousands of dollars for international first class tickets. On this subject, I'm confident that Bob Owens is equally ignorant.

Here's an inconsistency expressed by many of the TWU members posting here: On the one hand, the members of the worthless union claim that management is greedy and wants to keep all the money for themselves. But on the other hand, nearly every investment decision management makes in new planes, seats, terminals, etc. is misguided and contributes to losses. If management were so greedy, then why would it approve such "money-wasting" (Bob's view) investments in a misguided attempt to increase revenue? After all, these investments drained the company of capital that management could have spirited away for its own purposes.

 

[Bob Owens]

If you were in the business of selling rides in your car at premium prices, you'd figure out a way to replace it, so as to preserve the lucrative premium revenue stream. But since all you do with it is drive back and forth to an hourly job, replacing your car doesn't impact your family's revenue flow.

Of course it does, if I get stuck on the side of the road on my way to work I lose revenue.

New planes and fancy first class seats directly affect AA's revenue. AA doesn't sell enough premium fares as it is - and you advocate not trying to attract more of them by offering competitive seats on newer planes?

SWA doesnt have any of those fancy seats that wont pay for themeslves. They seem to be doing well and their workers are doing a lot better than we are.

Now you're citing Carty the Liar to support your absurd claims. You can't pick and choose quotes from discredited losers, Bob.

Why not? Is Arpey any different? Wasnt he part of the Carty Team?

New planes, seats and terminals didn't cause losses. If anything, they helped minimize the losses after September 11, 2001.

Of course they did. New planes in a contracting market is a poor choice-thats what helped kill EAL. Fancy seats didnt sell any better than the plain old ones, so that was another unnneded expense. Terminals that were functional didnt need to be replaced either. My house was built 20 years before the JFK terminal was built, and it was built out of wood, not steel and glass, sure it would be nice to build a brand new house but since I cant get someone else to "make sacrifices" in order to pay for it I'll just make do.

Revenue immediately fell more than 20% yet AA managed to avoid Ch 11 as its revenue recovered faster than many of its competitors. Wonder why that was?

Probably because they were in better shape than most of its competitors prior to Sept 11, got a nice handout from the government after Sept 11, and went on a cash burn from then until the Spring of 2003 where they were left with a paltry $1,000,000,000 to work with, boo hoo plus they were given the deepest concessionary package from its workers than any company ever got outside, or until then even inside, of BK.

I have no idea what motivates passengers to pay tens of thousands of dollars for international first class tickets. On this subject, I'm confident that Bob Owens is equally ignorant.

Arrogance, and the fact that they can pass the costs onto us through their corporations.

Here's an inconsistency expressed by many of the TWU members posting here: On the one hand, the members of the worthless union claim that management is greedy and wants to keep all the money for themselves. But on the other hand, nearly every investment decision management makes in new planes, seats, terminals, etc. is misguided and contributes to losses. If management were so greedy, then why would it approve such "money-wasting" (Bob's view) investments in a misguided attempt to increase revenue? After all, these investments drained the company of capital that management could have spirited away for its own purposes.

Well they cant be too obvious about it, its not like they are taking the money out of their pockets and "investing" in all that stuff, they are taking it out of

our pockets

and the only "return" we get is lower wages and less benifits.

Look AA can piss away the money however it sees fit but dont tell me they cant pay me a livable wage and provide reasonable benifits. Five years ago they asked us to "Make Sacrifices" and said "Shared pain, shared gain". OK so there will be no shared gain but I want it all back first, then piss away.

 

[American Air Surf]

TWU proposes intense period of negotiations with American Airlines
7:25 PM Tue, Oct 14, 2008
Terry Maxon

American Airlines and its Transport Workers Union have tried twice to get a quick contract deal in intense negotiations. On Friday, the TWU suggested a third attempt.

In a letter to American Airlines employee relations executive James Weel, TWU official Dennis Burchette suggested eight days of concentrated talks, Dec. 1-8, to try to get a new deal.

"At the end of the eighth day, if no agreement is reached, both sides would jointly file for mediation," wrote Mr. Burchette, American Airlines system coordinator and international vice president of TWU.

The talks would involve joint negotiations for fleet service clerks, stores employees, simulator technicians and instructors.

Mr. Burchette's proposal calls for the negotiating teams to "remain sequestered and available 24/7, totally focused and committed to the process."

Before talks began last fall, the two sides tried to work out a fast deal to replace the current contract, which became amendable on May 1, 2008.

In a second attempt in May, the company made a two-year proposal that gave the TWU members a couple of lump sum payments, but no pay rate increases, plus other goodies, in exchange for provisions that the union wouldn't accept.

In the May offer, American insisted that all TWU negotiating units, including those representing mechanics and dispatchers, accept the deal, including the ones represented by the joint committee.

Negotiators for some units were willing to send the agreement to a membership vote, but other negotiators didn't think it was good enough to vote on.

The TWU faces restlessness from its membership, including some local presidents, for a deal that regains what the union gave up in 2003 concessions.

Let me be clear, and very simplistic-

The only way these negotiations will be "INTENSE", is if all the door(s), and I do mean (DOORS) are all locked, and nobody is allowed out of the room to take a Sh*t, until an agreement is reached. That my fellow employee's, is the only solution to an agreement between the TWU (Totally Worthless Union) and American Airlines, in this current Economic Environment-

The only way out, is go get out. We are in for a long, deep, recession- There will be no winners, except the ("PUP"-Puppet Masters). There is nothing left for Labors concession efforts...

 

[TWU informer]

Let me be clear, and very simplistic-

The only way these negotiations will be "INTENSE", is if all the door(s), and I do mean (DOORS) are all locked, and nobody is allowed out of the room to take a Sh*t, until an agreement is reached. That my fellow employee's, is the only solution to an agreement between the TWU (Totally Worthless Union) and American Airlines, in this current Economic Environment-

The only way out, is go get out. We are in for a long, deep, recession- There will be no winners, except the ("PUP"-Puppet Masters). There is nothing left for Labors concession efforts...

Your White Flag approach and views makes me very glad you are not on the negotiating team.

You are a TWU Fear Monger with no solid facts to back your fears about long deep recession.

We have not even approached mediation help and you have already capitulated and want to use the "Who Can Hold Their Bowel Movement" long enough approach to an agreement. That would suck, and could be controlled by who cooks or supplies meals.

 

[Bob Owens]

Oh really? What's the cost of the F suites?

I believe the figure was in excess of over $250,000 each. Not including maintenance which is considerable. I recall a seat change that caused a three hour delay a few years back.

And what's the average F fare on routes that fly with them?

Dont know but I suspect many of them are upgrades.

 

[Bob Owens]

There is nothing left for Labors concession efforts...

What are you talking about? AA brought in around $24 billion this year, thats around $3billion more than in 2003 with around 40,000 less employees than they had in 2001. Also the billions they took from us and the billions that productivity improvements have saved them. Lets not forget the billions in debt they've paid off over the last five years and the $5billion kitty they've amassed. Sure fuel may have eaten up a lot of the additional revenue for 2008 but fuel is half what it was at its peak and at an average of $65000 per employee thats another $2.6Billion they have to play with. There's plenty of money, the only question what do we get for ourselves.

Recently I read an article about how Pittsburg airport was raising all their fees by 35%! I also read where AA was placing a huge order with Boeing. Well it seems that all the periferal industries are cashing in, why shouldnt we? AA doesnt need our concessions anymore and if we dont grab it all back now it just leaves more for all the periferal industries to grab.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- Bob, Reality check! As long as the TWU represents AA's AMT's, it's "NOT" going to happen!!!!

 

[American Air Surf]

What are you talking about? AA brought in around $24 billion this year, thats around $3billion more than in 2003 with around 40,000 less employees than they had in 2001. Also the billions they took from us and the billions that productivity improvements have saved them. Lets not forget the billions in debt they've paid off over the last five years and the $5billion kitty they've amassed. Sure fuel may have eaten up a lot of the additional revenue for 2008 but fuel is half what it was at its peak and at an average of $65000 per employee thats another $2.6Billion they have to play with. There's plenty of money, the only question what do we get for ourselves.

Recently I read an article about how Pittsburg airport was raising all their fees by 35%! I also read where AA was placing a huge order with Boeing. Well it seems that all the periferal industries are cashing in, why shouldnt we? AA doesnt need our concessions anymore and if we dont grab it all back now it just leaves more for all the periferal industries to grab.

Bob, Well that 5-Billion AA has, won't last to long, with accumulated losses- and along and deep recession, and people not flying, because the are deep in debt, and loosing their jobs-

1.) Let's take 9/11 into account- How long did it take AA to burn though all that CASH, Uncle Bobby had on hand, when cAArty took over- Not Loooonnngg...

2.) We have a Sh*t load of planes to replace. Sure Jet-A is down now (and for good reasons), but it won't stay there. AA is trying to make hay while the sun shines, (aircraft replacement) before the price of JET-A goes to the moon- and it will. I will say this. Regard of the "PUP's, Gerard now knows where Fuel is going /Oil/. He see it, and he sees a clear picture. He sees Calamity just over the horizion, and coming sooner than most think. I wish you could see the picture- But like most, most won't see it until it is to late. The /signs/ have been there, for all to see- But just like the recession that started in November of 2007, everyone was in denial- Q- Are you in denial now??

3.) Yes, I would like my money and my Contract, back the way it was- But the TWU gave away the farm- It is not coming back, and espeically, if there are no PAX to fill our planes- 5-LGA, 30-ICT, 50-60 PAX a plane aren't enough to make a flight profitable /Mainline/


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WAKE UP!

 

[American Air Surf]

Your White Flag approach and views makes me very glad you are not on the negotiating team.

You are a TWU Fear Monger with no solid facts to back your fears about long deep recession.

We have not even approached mediation help and you have already capitulated and want to use the "Who Can Hold Their Bowel Movement" long enough approach to an agreement. That would suck, and could be controlled by who cooks or supplies meals.

Hmmm...., !! Say, did you ever look at your Avatar? Hmmm- The "TWU INFORMER", WITH THE TWU SYMBOL WRAPPED AROUND THE "AA" ! And you call me the Fear Monger, with no solid Facts, in regard to our recession? Hmmm. Do you read? Or are you just, deaf, dumb & blind ? Pull you head out of the sand,-- Where have you been since Nov 2007 ??? Good Grief...

If I was on the negotiating team-, and you remember when they all walked out on AA's last offer? Well, I would have had enough organization (already), that when we (the VP's) walked out.. all of DFW, MIA, & ORD would have Wildcated. Don't think I have B*lls? Is it illegal? So....what..............................

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Dont know but I suspect many of them are upgrades.

Right, Bob. But you can't upgrade to F from Y. The upgraders to F are paying J fares. Those $5,000+ fares add up quickly. Using your figure of $250K per seat and my (conservative) figure of $5,000 per J fare r/t, that's 50 round trips to get to break-even on one of these seats. That's not a lot considering how much the birds are in the air. And that doesn't factor in the (minority of) folks who pay full boat F.