Pilot labor thread week 4/27-5/3

[AAA73Pilot]

It is unfortunate your emotions control so much of your decision making. Unless the UAL pilots rescue you guys from your own frantic emotional missteps of late, LOA93 will be your contract for a long, long time. But I guess that is what you wanted.

Here's a little advice back. No matter how egregious LOA93 is, it does come with some protections. Unlike Contract 2000. So I hope that is what you want as LCC shrinks to the east minimum fleet size. So my emotions are really not a factor at play here. I suggest you think about it as Doug divests himself of non performing overpriced assets.

 

[fr8tmastr]

For the east, and this is evidenced by your own MEC and negotiating comittee, DOH was not negotiable. You can't say you negotiated when you never negotiated.
.

They did, they moved to a more LOS position with fences and conditions

 

[EastUS]

It is often difficult to decode your cryptic response,

Some enhancement of reading skills is then gently suggested.

 

[sharktooth]

But why do you only see the West as greedy thieves wanting your flying...

Um, you actually quoted EastUS when really you should have been quoting one of the west dudes, to answer your question,

(Leonidas) "I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!"

Since he (Leonidas) has not rescinded that post nor have any other west pilot posted a rational distancing from that comment, I would assume that they mean what it says, they want the captain seat and they wish every single east pilot to pay for it(for that action, I presume).

That does not sound like a very rational stance from which to argue your points, I would think.

 

[sharktooth]

Is Bradford going to specifically state that there will be no adjustments made to your list even though DOH is the basic premiss of you C&BL?

As has been stated ad nauseam, USAPA inherits all "accepted" contracts and arrangements from before. The "nic" was never accepted as the process was never completed, needing a merger agreement, ratified separately, by the two pilot groups, at least. Now, even ALPA, through Jeff Small, has opined that the TA itself is dead.

The east list, which includes the Empire pilots, was an "accepted" ordering and therefore, would need some sort of ratification for an unpopular (at least amongst those voting) change. An earlier challenge, filed in 1992, was ruled as outside the statute of limitations for redress by a judge so some other rationale would have to be presented. I am not saying it could not be done. Just would be a steep, uphill and expensive climb.

 

[flynomore]

"but way past the loyalty oath requirement." Ahh..that explains my missing it then

=========================================================

I also note the selective application of that code to officers and committee chairs. Irony abounds!

It would have been nice to see some more of those non-flying pilots out and about on weekends and holidaze. Let
us hope that the new boss doesn't do the same with FPL or whatever the new acronym becomes.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

For the east, and this is evidenced by your own MEC and negotiating comittee, DOH was not negotiable. You can't say you negotiated when you never negotiated.
If you want a contract so bad then give up on obsession with DOH in merger integrations- it hasn't even been done for three of your own integratoins. The west reached out and offered fences, restrictions and access to all of your upgrades but you won't let that DOH fixation go. The predicament you find yourself in today is the fault of none other than your own.

Believe what you want. I will do the same. But placing the blame squarely at the easts feet is beyond belief. You will grasp at anything. Thats OK because events unfolding are beyond our control except through our own participative votes. Oops. Thats right, non members do not get a vote on union matters. Our predicament has a better chance of solution now, than ever under ALPA's purview. Works for me.

 

[nostradamus]

However if it goes some other way then you will "stick to your principles" even if they are not attainable and take the ship down with you.
Is this correct? If not please clarify.

"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things." —Niccolò Machiavelli

This quote and more are on a web site of non alpa UAL pilots that had courage to be the first to question alpa politics. Their attempt failed, but opened the door.


United Pilots Association, We tried. Now we all get what we deserve: More of the same. Click here for web site

 

[767jetz]

Some enhancement of reading skills is then gently suggested.

cute.

So thats it? That's your answer? And here I was actually hopeful we were having a useful exchange minus the tennis match.

Let me try again... seriously...

What I am hearing is that as long as it is DOH you are comfortable to let things unfold. However if it goes some other way then you will "stick to your principles" even if they are not attainable and take the ship down with you.
Is this correct? If not please clarify.

------------------------------------

I also asked you and AAA73Pilot:

If everyone keeps what they had, to include your own international flying and attrition, shouldn't it also include one's proximity to the unemployment line? Under your plan, a reduction in work force puts West captains on the street and your recent furloughees in their jobs. How do you reconcile this? I don't think it rings sincere to say you want everyone to keep what they brought to the table, except the baggage and misfortune that you had. That should belong to someone else?

If you want to have protections to keep your attrition and resulting upgrades, then the West should keep theirs as well, in addition to the jobs they came with. The last person recalled should be the first person furloughed next time. Isn't this how it always worked?

I'm really trying to understand this. How about a real explanation without the wise cracks and sarcasm.


What about you, AAA73Pilot? I really want both of your straight responses to these questions. I'm honestly not being confrontational. Just attempting to understand your point of view.

 

[prechilill]

So thats it? That's your answer? And here I was actually hopeful we were having a useful exchange minus the tennis match.
What about you, AAA73Pilot? I really want both of your straight responses to these questions. I'm honestly not being confrontational. Just attempting to understand your point of view.

Here is another question. If USAPs are going to arrange the integrated seniority list by DOH between AWA and US, then why are they going to ignore the Empire pilots and deny them their due seniority? (For those unfamiliar with the Empire debacle, they were stapled to the bottom of the Piedmont list, so you had guys hired in the mid 70's junior to Piedmont pilots hired in '85. The Empire guys never got their seniority back either, and that is a shame.) Ironically, there are a couple AWA pilots at the very top of the list who will benefit from a DOH integration and place them near the top of the combined list. So, if it is good enough to redo the integrated list with AWA/US, why not the Empire pilots?

 

[nostradamus]

I don't think it rings sincere to say you want everyone to keep what they brought to the table, except the baggage and misfortune that you had. That should belong to someone else?

doug parker was saved by government loans after 911, as were many other airlines. The difference is doug parker former CEO of america west airlines was first in line for a hand out. parker asked for more than his regional airline needed from the government so he could increase his own personal wealth buy trying to merge with another airline using these funds, using 911 victims and tragedy of our country. The government sent his first request back, even they sensed the selfishness.


The messenger, with the news.

 

[EastUS]

cute.

So thats it? That's your answer? And here I was actually hopeful we were having a useful exchange minus the tennis match.

Let me try again... seriously...

If everyone keeps what they had, to include your own international flying and attrition,

As you're apparently in at least some degree of earnest with your question...fair enough. Let's properly address issues in order, individually, and start with: How/what circumstances define the notion of "everyone keeps what they had, to include your own international flying and attrition,"..and..you'll perhaps quickly excuse me if I'm wholly unable to see how anything of the sort even remotely would happen under Nic.

"Under your plan, a reduction in work force puts West captains on the street and your recent furloughees in their jobs." What magical numbers are you drawing from what equally "magical" hat? I see any likelihood of that as being virtually zero..assuming company survival in ANY fashion. I'm displeased with envisioning anyone back "on the street" to say the very least, but: I put it to you = Play King Solomon for a moment..and tell me how you would "relatively" choose who's to go? My preference would be furlough in reverse order of service on the line time accumulated. Try and tell me/anyone why years of flown work are actually worthless..versus some new hire's showing up on campus. I'm all ears. Find what fault with that you wish. That's my personal belief as to the best "middle ground" here, and not reflective of pure DOH, I'll grant...and not any voicing of majority opinion..and is my best efforts at considering compromise...but Hey!..NO one out west wants to even talk about ANYTHING...so,...etc.

If I'm about to vote, without any west input..and have to purely choose between Heil NIC!!.."Eastholes"..."Sheeple"..."I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!"..."Ho Ho Ho!..St Nic is coming to town!".."clowns"...or "MY" people..that I actually know and fly with..without ANY reasonable, interim ground at all..guess which I'll cheerfully pick?

"I don't think it rings sincere to say you want everyone to keep what they brought to the table, except the baggage and misfortune that you had." Kindly refresh my memory as to when I've EVER whined around here about my career, or life in general? Whether or not this/any airline even survives...my position's not based on any "It's ALL about MEEE!" BS. So..where's the supposed source for any "insincerity"?

"If you want to have protections to keep your attrition and resulting upgrades, then the West should keep theirs as well, in addition to the jobs they came with." I completely agree...shock time. It's NEVER been my position that any west pilot should become subject to displacement by any east person, and have often, directly stated exactly that.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Here is another question. If USAPs are going to arrange the integrated seniority list by DOH between AWA and US, then why are they going to ignore the Empire pilots and deny them their due seniority? (For those unfamiliar with the Empire debacle, they were stapled to the bottom of the Piedmont list, so you had guys hired in the mid 70's junior to Piedmont pilots hired in '85. The Empire guys never got their seniority back either, and that is a shame.) Ironically, there are a couple AWA pilots at the very top of the list who will benefit from a DOH integration and place them near the top of the combined list. So, if it is good enough to redo the integrated list with AWA/US, why not the Empire pilots?

Asked and answered earlier and in previous closed threads. Why do you feel you have to keep repeating yourself? Some self gratification I suppose? Get over it, I have.

 

[prechilill]

Asked and answered earlier and in previous closed threads. Why do you feel you have to keep repeating yourself? Some self gratification I suppose? Get over it, I have.

Actually, the question was never answered so it was asked again.

 

[ableoneable]

Not an LOA but a joint contract. Where do you think Doug will want to start? LOA93 or contract 2000? Either way there will be parity for the same craft and class. Lets just hope he needs a contract in the near future in a real bad way. That may make it more palatable for all.

Therefore, I see no DFR winner over this issue. Welcome to my world as to what happens with a divided group. Your pay cut won't be too bad and my pay raise won't be as good as it could have been. ..sigh.. When the single vote occurs for a joint agreement, I guess about 57% will see it pass........again.

It really does not matter if it is done through an LOA or a Joint Contract.

Assuming USAPA can junk the TA and pass a contract through their majority of votes any decrease in workrules/pay for the west for gains in the east is a breach of USAPAs duty to represent the west pilots.

USAPA would lose this case and you would see a wage garnishment to make the west pilots whole.