Pilot labor thread week 4/27-5/3

[prechilill]

have you now anything new in your thinking to offer?

How about this: there is no more negotiating to be done- it's over. DOH, in case you haven't figured it out yet, doesn't work because all of the opportunities are given to your side and all the liabilities are shouldered by the west pilots. Get it? Nicolau and the rest of the industry did. You guys are in left field so given the fact you refused to negotiate before the mediation, you refused to budge from DOH during mediation and arbitration, given the fact the east still would not budge after the Nicolau award when ALPA was trying desperately to get you guys to budge just a little, I think it is pretty safe to say the east does not want to negotiate. So here is my idea: Let things fall where they may. The courts are going to clarify the impropriety of USAPs bylaws, but before we even get that far it looks like the UAL pilots are going to give you guys a little return of your "majority rules" flavor you have been so fond of parroting.
Your little union detour is blowing up in your face, from what it looks like. St. Nic is heading to Chicago

 

[prechilill]

One way or the other, with or without your / west participation, one will be negotiated never the less.

Here is a little advice: get a new lawyer. You see, independent ratification of a new CBA has roots much deeper than a little clause in our transition agreement. It came from somewhere and it wasn't just an arbitrary idea ALPA made up on their own. Your law firm either hasn't figured this out yet or they are not passing this info on to the USAPA sheeple. But fear not, it will become center stage in a short while and we will be in a holding pattern for, oh, indefinitely.
It is unfortunate your emotions control so much of your decision making. Unless the UAL pilots rescue you guys from your own frantic emotional missteps of late, LOA93 will be your contract for a long, long time. But I guess that is what you wanted.

 

[EastUS]

How about this: there is no more negotiating to be done- it's over.

OK...Nothing new in your thinking there then. No matter...life will go on, and the future, as always, remains unknown. We'll all see

PS: "It is unfortunate your emotions control so much of your decision making" Having seen, via video, the astonishing, stand-up comedy act at PHX, performed by such irrational masterpieces as your supposed "moderator" and countless other equally ranting, angry, and fully hysterical individuals....simply know that all of this doesn't register on everyone's emotional Richter Scale to the same dramatic levels as you must clearly imagine from your own surroundings.

 

[flynomore]

How about this: there is no more negotiating to be done- it's over. DOH, in case you haven't figured it out yet, doesn't work because all of the opportunities are given to your side and all the liabilities are shouldered by the west pilots. Get it? Nicolau and the rest of the industry did. You guys are in left field so given the fact you refused to negotiate before the mediation, you refused to budge from DOH during mediation and arbitration, given the fact the east still would not budge after the Nicolau award when ALPA was trying desperately to get you guys to budge just a little, I think it is pretty safe to say the east does not want to negotiate. So here is my idea: Let things fall where they may. The courts are going to clarify the impropriety of USAPs bylaws, but before we even get that far it looks like the UAL pilots are going to give you guys a little return of your "majority rules" flavor you have been so fond of parroting.
Your little union detour is blowing up in your face, from what it looks like. St. Nic is heading to Chicago

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Is or was that the negotiating stance used in mediation by AWA ALPA?

If we change your message from East to West / West to East isn't the message the same? Except that your 40% is more valuable in your own eyes than my 60?

And by the way, as has been noted ad infinitum here, Nicolau gives all attrition to those West pilots that are younger than similarly situated East pilots on his list. Those losses would NEVER be recouped. Failure to note that and compensate the East group is what decertified ALPA helped by heavy handedness on the PHL council.

So we are where we are. "USAPs", nice touch. and isn't that against ALPA's code of ethics to use such language?

The house was divided the day the merger was announced, stoked by Management's verbal short hand of East/West and everyone swallowed it all whole.

Good luck to us all because the old leadership didn't give us any. We may only hope the new one does.

 

[sharktooth]

BTW, I do not expect UAL to file to Chapter 11. If it does, there will be a bidding war for the profitable assets.

A corporation files for Chapter 11 to protect themselves from the very "bidding war" you mention. Perhaps you should consider acquainting yourself with Chapter 11/13 and, of course, 7. Most any grade school book would be able to help you understand the contradiction you posited.

 

[EastUS]

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Is or was that the negotiating stance used in mediation by AWA ALPA?

If we change your message from East to West / West to East isn't the message the same? Except that your 40% is more valuable in your own eyes than my 60?

And by the way, as has been noted ad infinitum here, Nicolau gives all attrition to those West pilots that are younger than similarly situated East pilots on his list. Those loses would NEVER be recouped. Failure to note that and compensate the East group is what decertified ALPA helped by heavy handedness on the PHL council.

So we are where we are. "USAPs", nice touch. and isn't that against ALPA's code of ethics to use such language?

The house was divided the day the merger was announced, stoked by Management's verbal short hand of East/West and everyone swallowed it all whole.

Good luck to us all because the old leadership didn't give us any. We may only hope the new one does.

"ALPA's code of ethics"???? I about had a choking coffee/keyboard interface moment there

 

[Fully Cross Utilized]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Apr 28 2008, 01:59 PM)
I'm content to see just how events actually unfold.

Serious question: Do you really mean that? You are actually content to see how it unfolds? Or do you mean that you are content as long as it unfolds the way you want it to, and if doesn't (like Nic for example) then all bets are off once again?

I was hoping to see an answer to this question.

 

[toganoflex]

You asked for my opinion, here it is. Simply, No.

I heard USAPA used that promise to get votes.

Is Bradford going to specifically state that there will be no adjustments made to your list even though DOH is the basic premiss of you C&BL?

 

[prechilill]

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Is or was that the negotiating stance used in mediation by AWA ALPA?

For the east, and this is evidenced by your own MEC and negotiating comittee, DOH was not negotiable. You can't say you negotiated when you never negotiated.
If you want a contract so bad then give up on obsession with DOH in merger integrations- it hasn't even been done for three of your own integratoins. The west reached out and offered fences, restrictions and access to all of your upgrades but you won't let that DOH fixation go. The predicament you find yourself in today is the fault of none other than your own.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

A good thing for you, and all of us, that some actual principles are held out east.

Great post I know they won't believe it, but we can keep trying.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (767jetz @ Apr 28 2008, 02:01 PM)
Serious question: Do you really mean that? You are actually content to see how it unfolds? Or do you mean that you are content as long as it unfolds the way you want it to, and if doesn't (like Nic for example) then all bets are off once again?

I was hoping to see an answer to this question.

I don't change my principles to suit circumstances, nor lose any thoughts of "fighting" for what I perceive to be Right. I believe that it's in any person's best interests to NOT have "flexible" principles..becasue such eventually, always amounts to having none at all. I'm content to see how events unfold and deal with them as they do. All the "What if's" in the world mean very little to me, nor do I ever much fret over them. I very firmly believe in DOH as being utterly essential to craft Unionism of any form..Period...If that answers your question. What's attainable in future circumstances will be seen as they progress.

A minor rant on Unionism: Imagine what the state of the industry would now be, had Alpa established a national seniority roster, and actually had the nads to call for suspensions of service on a nationwide scale, when such wonders as the PATCO obliteration happened, or post 9-11, when billions upon billions of dollars in pilot pensions were being thrown away. Imagine..even for a moment, what the governmental response would have been....other than to chuckle and do nothing, while widows lost all their income/lives were ransacked/futures ruined/etc. Now explain to me how that sort of unity could EVER be possible within this "relative worth", every tribe/man for themselves situation we're all now in.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I heard USAPA used that promise to get votes.

Is Bradford going to specifically state that there will be no adjustments made to your list even though DOH is the basic premiss of you C&BL?

No, we did not. Therefore you heard wrong. Think that started with the ALPA FUD campaign.

I don't know. Why don't you call him up and ask him. IMO I doubt it. But that's my opinion.

 

[flynomore]

"ALPA's code of ethics"???? I about had a choking coffee/keyboard interface moment there

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As I thought, it is there. Next to the last bullet, but way past the loyalty oath requirement.

To the former com director I sure didn't see any negotiations either way. Including some famous newpaper quotes from AWA. Certainly you may find similar ones from AAA types. Which will prove my point again.


http://www.alpa.org/?tabid=270

 

[EastUS]

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As I thought, it is there. Next to the last bullet, but way past the loyalty oath requirement.

To the former com director I sure didn't see any negotiations either way. Including some famous newpaper quotes from AWA. Certainly you may find similar ones from AAA types. Which will prove my point again.


http://www.alpa.org/?tabid=270

"but way past the loyalty oath requirement." Ahh..that explains my missing it then

 

[767jetz]

I very firmly believe in DOH as being utterly essential to craft Unionism of any form..Period...If that answers your question. What's attainable in future circumstances will be seen as they progress.

It is often difficult to decode your cryptic response, but what I am hearing is that as long as it is DOH you are comfortable to let things unfold. However if it goes some other way then you will "stick to your principles" even if they are not attainable and take the ship down with you.
Is this correct? If not please clarify.