Pilot labor thread week 4/27-5/3

[AAA73Pilot]

Then the next question is, why not?

If DOH is the cornerstone of a union as you claim, and it is the only thing that really matters, why not adjust everyone's seniority to reflect true DOH. According to you, past agreements and rulings are irrelevant since your new union dictates a DOH list. So please simply explain to everyone here what seems on the surface to be a double standard. I'm all ears...

If USAPA was around back then, I agree with you. We were not. The list has been used in our contracts ever since. IMO Righting past wrongs is not in USAPA's purview. What contract is the Nic list implemented in? None that I know. If Nic gets used in a future contract, then so be it. Right now I believe no combined contract between east and west will contain it. West will sue. The courts will decide, and thats the way it is. Who wins in court will be the deciding factor. I have my opinion and the west posters have theirs.

Parting shot, at least ALPA is gone. Maybe short term, or maybe permanently. We'll just have to play it out. Merger or no merger.

 

[EastUS]

You are correct. The only way UA pilots will be on board would be a very strong, iron-clad prenup, agreed to by both sides, without DOH or a staple job, and with enough money and protections to make everyone somewhat happy, but not getting everything they want. This will be a precondition of anything moving forward (absent a BK, which I don't think is in anyone's immediate future).

Otherwise any merger between the groups will be DOA and there will be no need to even discuss Nicolau, or USAPA vs ALPA.

"only way UA pilots will be on board would be a very strong, iron-clad prenup, agreed to by both sides, " That seems/sounds perfectly reasonable...if at all possible. The majority of our "side" would certainly be amenable to such discussions.

"Tilton knows that you can't merge an airline the size of UA without the overwhelming majority of people who actually make the airplanes move from A to B cooperating. Without us the whole thing comes to a screeching halt. (literally.)" Factor in the following then, from those you so ardently strive to support = "I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!" I'm very sure that such individuals would NEVER, ever do anything to opportunistically take your positions..you being presumably 'sacred" via a UAL tattoo

"If anyone at US thinks that merging with UA is a good thing, then they have to bury their old preconceptions of how they think things should now be or should have been before, and start thinking what's actually workable for their future." Personally..I want nothing to do with such a merger, given UAL's balance sheet....but that means nothing in the scheme of things. If we get stuck with it...ah well. Regardless: The exact same thought then applies to yourself as to thinking in terms of what's workable.

 

[Leonidas]

If USAPA was around back then, I agree with you. We were not. The list has been used in our contracts ever since. IMO Righting past wrongs is not in USAPA's purview.

You are kidding right? Does usapa not inherit all agreements and contracts?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Let me end by reminding you of one of your very own philosophies...

Was going to post a reply to this. Then decided I can not change your opinion anymore than you can change mine. You and I it seems will always have our differences and that's the way it is and probably always will be. Like I have said before, Oh well. One thing I do know, your assumptions as to what I think is so far off base it doesn't warrant a response.

 

[EastUS]

You are kidding right? Does usapa not inherit all agreements and contracts?

Well...according to you; USAPA doesn't even exist..since you posted that you were going to be "laughing" after the election results came in. "If' it actually exists..then you've assured us all that it's imminently doomed via your, as yet unnoticed, brilliantly devastating legal assaults, and even if those prove ridiculous..that it's instantly going away in seconds, within any future merger...so = What's your possible points to now fret over?

 

[ableoneable]

I'm hoping that one of the first things USAPA does is sign an LOA putting the West under LOA 93. Since no west members will join or have a say in it, it will easily pass member ratification.

That would be great.

A complete, sure fire, DFR winner.

That way you will get the chance to make up my loss of income personally. My pay stays the same but yours goes down.

I hope all the east pilots are similarly intellectually equipped.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You are kidding right? Does usapa not inherit all agreements and contracts?

No I'm not. Is that so hard for you to understand. Try rereading my entire post, it will make sense to you if you do.

Yes, USAPA inherited it all as far as I know. As for the TA to merge our respective groups, well that is still to be determined. Remember when I posted what ALPA Atty. Small said about the TA? It was after a CLT ALPA roadshow. He said the TA disappears. Then ALPA put him incognito. Wonder why? Only time will tell as things play out.

 

[767jetz]

I'm content to see just how events actually unfold.

Serious question: Do you really mean that? You are actually content to see how it unfolds? Or do you mean that you are content as long as it unfolds the way you want it to, and if doesn't (like Nic for example) then all bets are off once again?

 

[767jetz]

Factor in the following then, from those you so ardently strive to support = "I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!"

Was going to post a reply to this. Then decided I can not change your opinion anymore than you can change mine. You and I it seems will always have our differences and that's the way it is and probably always will be.

OK. Another serious question:

You both keep talking about DOH with conditions so everyone keeps what they bring to the party. Sounds fair enough on the surface.

But why do you only see the West as greedy thieves wanting your flying, and not concerned pilots who want to keep what they brought, as in a job as opposed to a recall notice? Can't you see the unfairness in this?

If everyone keeps what they had, to include your own international flying and attrition, shouldn't it also include one's proximity to the unemployment line? Under your plan, a reduction in work force puts West captains on the street and your recent furloughees in their jobs. How do you reconcile this? I don't think it rings sincere to say you want everyone to keep what they brought to the table, except the baggage and misfortune that you had. That should belong to someone else?

If you want to have protections to keep your attrition and resulting upgrades, then the West should keep theirs as well as the jobs they came with. The last person recalled should be the first person furloughed next time. Isn't this how it always worked?

I'm really trying to understand this. And when you guys are pressed to answer this all we get is silence or attacks. How about a real explanation.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

That would be great.

A complete, sure fire, DFR winner.

That way you will get the chance to make up my loss of income personally. My pay stays the same but yours goes down.

I hope all the east pilots are similarly intellectually equipped.

Not an LOA but a joint contract. Where do you think Doug will want to start? LOA93 or contract 2000? Either way there will be parity for the same craft and class. Lets just hope he needs a contract in the near future in a real bad way. That may make it more palatable for all.

Therefore, I see no DFR winner over this issue. Welcome to my world as to what happens with a divided group. Your pay cut won't be too bad and my pay raise won't be as good as it could have been. ..sigh.. When the single vote occurs for a joint agreement, I guess about 57% will see it pass........again.

 

[zflygrl]

Ok here is a question for USAPA: If the MERGER of United and US Airways goes through...as CNN has just said on the tube (and just to make it clear...US Airways is NOT buying UNITED as they like to say They bought AWA....NOT) what does that mean for the east coast pilots....(didn't the west coast pilots file a section six for a little protection in-case this very thing happened?) After all United is ALPA? <_< I feel this is part of the topic at hand....because if this MERGER (NOT A BUY OUT) happens aren't some people going to have a little egg on their faces? h34r:

 

[prechilill]

Not an LOA but a joint contract. Where do you think Doug will want to start? LOA93 or contract 2000? Either way there will be parity for the same craft and class. Lets just hope he needs a contract in the near future in a real bad way. That may make it more palatable for all.

Therefore, I see no DFR winner over this issue. Welcome to my world as to what happens with a divided group. Your pay cut won't be too bad and my pay raise won't be as good as it could have been. ..sigh.. When the single vote occurs for a joint agreement, I guess about 57% will see it pass........again.

Well, you claimed to be standing by your principles by refusing to negotiate a joint contract a few months ago. Why are you surprised the west is going to stand by their principles and refuse to negotiate a contract which surrenders our upgrades and exposes our captains to furlough before your most junior copilots flying in May of 2005? I think you are smart enough to figure this one out.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Ok here is a question for USAPA: If the MERGER of United and US Airways goes through...as CNN has just said on the tube what does that mean for the east coast pilots....(?)

After all United is ALPA? I feel this is part of the topic at hand....because if this MERGER happens aren't some people going to have a little egg on their faces?

Had to break your post down to get to the questions.
1. It means we are merging with UAL and go through all of this again.
2. Yes. United is ALPA.
3. No. It means the majority has spoken. It doesn't mean ALPA will garner 100% support either. Much like how the west is not supporting USAPA. Maybe in time we can all come together over common ground. Just depends on the issue(s), I guess.

Of course the assumption is the merger will go through in the first place. I also read where UAL will have to have major cuts in everything before it will pass the DOJ and DOT. Are those self imposed cuts going to come before or after merger? If it is before, I feel for the UAL junior people.

Will US have cuts before or after merger? If it's before, and also before a joint contract is signed, good luck to the west folks. The reason I say this is the continued validity of the TA is in question. Is it surviving or not? I don't know because I have heard many conflicting opinions and theories. The west contract does not contain minimum fleet size. The east LOA93 at least has that, and E190's are not supposed to count in it. So where will the cuts come from if we are still operating with 2 contracts?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Well, you claimed to be standing by your principles by refusing to negotiate a joint contract a few months ago. Why are you surprised the west is going to stand by their principles and refuse to negotiate a contract which surrenders our upgrades and exposes our captains to furlough before your most junior copilots flying in May of 2005? I think you are smart enough to figure this one out.

Yep I was standing by my principles to keep ALPA from the JNC. I didn't trust the negotiating committee to have my best interests at heart. Therefore I supported the "boycott" (For lack of a better word) until after the election. That was a problem that USAPA can now overcome.

A few months ago we were in ALPA. USAPA is the difference now. Doug wants a joint contract. We will negotiate one. One way or the other, with or without your / west participation, one will be negotiated never the less. Whether it gets finished and put out for ratification will depend on Doug and how it will impact a merger, if there is one. But we will move forward one way or the other. How well depends on our unity. Which is none right now and maybe never. That's how I see it.....sigh.....

 

[EastUS]

Well, you claimed to be standing by your principles by refusing to negotiate a joint contract a few months ago. Why are you surprised the west is going to stand by their principles and refuse to negotiate a contract which surrenders our upgrades and exposes our captains to furlough before your most junior copilots flying in May of 2005? I think you are smart enough to figure this one out.

What, if any, are your reasonable proposals? I'm fairly certain that the east's fully over your personal "best" to date = "Ho Ho Ho!, St Nic is coming to town!" Other than the standard bits = the east are all just scumbags, "dishonorable", "no integrity", "eastholes", "sheeple".."clowns"...etc; have you now anything new in your thinking to offer?

AAA73Pilot: "When the single vote occurs for a joint agreement, I guess about 57% will see it pass........again."

Has it EVER, even for the briefest of moments, even occurred to you that, if the east pilots/USAPA were the vile creatures you feel we are, that a strategy involving putting together a list that totally stapled the west below us all, even if coupled with a below par contract, (but one that would improve east pay) would, most probably, be perfectly do-able in short order? For all those out west cheering on the supposedly imminent demise of the Union via yet another presumed marriage attempt with UAL....what would be the least possible reason for us not to do exactly that, in the face of another Alpoid takeover? Your posts have always claimed total selfishness in the east after all. A good thing for you, and all of us, that some actual principles are held out east.