ALPA/USAPA/West thread 3/30-4/5
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oldiebutgoody
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He's just trying to convince himself that ALPA is the way to go. I hope any undecided voters (if any) see ALPA for the parasite it has become over the last 50 years. ALPA provides NOTHING that USAPA doesn't already have lined up, secured and guaranteed. The main difference is that USAPA is ONLY concerned with the well being of pilots at US Airways, not sacrificing some at smaller companies for the benefit of those at the larger ones.
I didn't read the entire long-winded post, but those that were aware of what happened to Captain Menear know that it was because TSA was forcefully requiring him remove parts of his uniform, including his hat, after the pilots were instructed that this would not be required. Of course, due to the fact that the TSA is largely a bunch of cop wannabes, they had him arrested. This incident in NO WAY impugns the character or credibility of Captain Menear, except in the eyes of some from the west, apparently.
I didn't read the entire long-winded post, but those that were aware of what happened to Captain Menear know that it was because TSA was forcefully requiring him remove parts of his uniform, including his hat, after the pilots were instructed that this would not be required. Of course, due to the fact that the TSA is largely a bunch of cop wannabes, they had him arrested. This incident in NO WAY impugns the character or credibility of Captain Menear, except in the eyes of some from the west, apparently.
It was my understanding that a gate agent supervisor, who threw herself into the frey, is who called the police. Irrespective of who called the police, TSA is a dysfunctional, inept "organization".
What Leonidas also fails to mention is Captain Menear sued the Philadelphia police department [City of Philadelphia] over this incident and WON his suit!
oldiebutgoody
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Don't try to confuse his opinion by introducing FACTS. It only makes his posts longer,since it's harder to convince himself that he's right!
sharktooth
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I guess he belongs to the school who think if you repeat the lie often enough, it magically becomes true, a sort of "consensus" of hot air.
E
EastUS
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Well...everyone's got some particular set of beliefs. Mine are that Alpa's a self-obsessed, parasitical farce that's wholly detrimental to the pilotiong profession, and that logically must "GO". In the case of "some" posters..it takes little to clearly see what seemingly motivates them, and it's no difficulty to understand that particular one's paradigm from his own postings = "I want the Captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it". Now; there's Alpoid "Fraternity" and "Unity" at it's absolutely truest and finest.
It seems Nic's just too huge a cookie jar for those of the "It's ALL about MEEE!!" persuasion to easilly put down, and since Nic=Alpa...well..naturally, Alpa's just "great".
LSS: "What Leonidas also fails to mention is Captain Menear sued the Philadelphia police department [City of Philadelphia] over this incident and WON his suit!" What's also "conveniently" ommitted is the fact that the mentioned incident, involving a pilot raising the BS Flag at great risk to himself, also resulted in a reduction in abusive BS from "security"/TSA handling for everyone. How even the dimmist of bulbs could/would seek to color the pilot involved in an unsavory light...not only speaks volumes about their own sorry "innocence", but imho, also qualifies any/all such "thinkers" as proper Alpo-Fodder, in that they seem opposed to ever standing up for what's Right, if it ever means opposing "The System" at any level.
Sir, you are 100% correct!
E
EastUS
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While I'm quite sure that such isn't universally the case with my expressed thoughts
.... In this case sir?...I believe that to be true. PHL and a select few NorEastern airports were seeing "Security" truly running amok for a time, and acting like pathetic little despots. I'm proud of that gentlemen for taking the risky stand against such wanton, and utterly disrespectfull treatment of crewmembers that he did. I fretted that it would cost him his career, especially as this was during the period when there seemed no limits on what powers for the fledgling, but fast-growing secuirty "empire" might have established as presumptive "authority". It was truly great to hear of his eventual triumph in court. Civil "disobediance" has it's proper, and valued role in American society.I'll leave the floor open again for any Noble Alpoid's of the "I want the Captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it". persuasion, to again seek to cast the man's actions in any dishonorable light.
Can USAPA succeed at imposing date-of-hire on us?
AWAPPA is confident that USAPA’s failure is a matter of when, not if. Unfortunately, USAPA will succeed in causing all of us to pay dearly for their failure in legal fees and prolonged substandard contracts. That is one of many reasons why the best defense against USAPA is a vote for ALPA in the election. You might then wonder why USAPA is so confident in its assertions about achieving a date-of-hire seniority list. The short answer to that question is: because they’re trying to win an election!
The facts show that USAPA’s assertions are nothing more than arrogance fueled by seriously flawed legal advice. USAPA’s purported “right†to impose date of hire on us is based solely upon two things:
The legal opinion of an attorney who has a track record of representing independent unions that regularly fail.
The assumption that Doug Parker is willing to undo his acceptance of the Nicolau Award, or that USAPA will have the leverage to compel Parker to negotiate around that Award.
Let’s review the facts about each of those. First, consider the fate of the following so-called independent unions, each of which USAPA’s lawyer represented:
United Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - AMFA, a client of USAPA’s lawyer, displaced the IAM a few years ago. It failed miserably; United promptly subcontracted a huge number of mechanics’ jobs with the result that thousands of United mechanics are on furlough. An NMB representation election seeking to displace the independent union with the Teamsters is in the works. Knowledgeable airline industry observers have predicted with great confidence that the result will be either that the Teamsters will win or no union will win. In either case, the independent union is finished at United.
Northwest Airlines Aircraft Mechanics – The independent union USAPA’s lawyer represented displaced the IAM and later went on strike. The strike was a complete failure. All of the strikers were permanently replaced, mostly by subcontractors, and the actual mechanic class and craft that the independent union would in theory represent (if it actually had the support of the scabs, which it does not) would be a fraction of the original workforce.
Northwest Airlines Flight Attendants – USAPA’s lawyer represented an independent flight attendant union which won a representation election against the Teamsters. Apparently the flight attendants concluded that this so-called union was unable to represent their interests, because after only a few years of representation it was ousted in an NMB election and the AFA now represents the Northwest flight attendants.
Continental Flight Attendants – USAPA’s lawyer (through his actual paying client, a company called the McCormack Advisory Group) helped form an independent union for flight attendants in an effort to displace the IAM as the Continental flight attendant’s union. The IAM sued the independent union, its officers, and McCormack for misappropriating IAM membership lists (sound familiar?). McCormack consented to a judgment against it and paid damages to the IAM. The independent union and its officers ultimately settled with the IAM and those officers are now suing McCormack who is represented by USAPA’s law firm. In other words, USAPA’s lawyer’s client in that case (McCormak) is being sued by the independent union that same lawyer helped start.
And those unions failed without 1800 of the employees they represented actively opposed to the unions on the day they were certified.
Aside from the flawed legal analysis on which USAPA bases its assertion that it will bargain away the Nicolau award, USAPA’s leadership has publicly admitted that they do not know if Parker will negotiate a date-of-hire seniority list (or, for that matter, any list that deviates from the Nicolau award) with them (even if it is accompanied by a cheap contract), and that there is no “Plan B†if Parker refuses. In that regard, in the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, AWAPPA will put the Company on notice that it will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that it agrees to any modification of the Nicolau award.
We also learned this week that USAPA believes that they can defy the laws of negotiating by achieving their demands with zero leverage (video of that discussion coming soon). After all, what leverage will USAPA really ever have when over a third of the group it represents is “unsupportiveâ€, and the unity of the other 2/3 is questionable? There is already obvious evidence of large fissures in the “majority†2/3 of the group. It remains to be seen if USAPA will be able to retain a majority of support for more than a few days past a narrow election victory.
As you can see, USAPA’s rocky foundation is enough to almost virtually guarantee their failure. Your ALPA vote will prevent us from having to pay for that failure. AWAPPA will fight hard to minimize that price of failure, if your ALPA vote is not enough to prevent paying a price.
How do I donate to AWAPPA?
Although the goals of AWAPPA and Leonidas are similar, our strategies may differ somewhat. Both groups have agreed to coordinate efforts as much as possible to prevent a division of the pilot group. It is not our intent to ask pilots to choose sides. In fact, at this point, all that we ask is that you read our updates and consider our recommendations.
Having stated the ideal goal above, the potential does exist for one litigation effort to negatively influence another. If that becomes the case and we are unable to facilitate a coordinated effort, we will do our best to inform you of that situation.
If USAPA wins the election, and US Airways management subsequently agrees to Date of Hire, is ALPA going to provide resources to AWAPPA to assist in the resulting legal battle?
It is important to understand that we will have the resources and support necessary to succeed in defeating USAPA without any of ALPA’s assistance.
Although ALPA has not committed publicly to support AWAPPA’s efforts, we believe that ALPA will assist us in one form or another. Historically, ALPA has participated in precedent setting legal cases that could affect their ability to represent pilots, and our case definitely meets that standard.
As a reminder, AWAPPA will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that any modification of the Nicolau award is agreed to.
Who is funding USAPA ?
USAPA is currently funded by donations. But the current level of USAPA’s financial support is certainly questionable as evidenced by this excerpt of an internal USAPA email from only about one month ago:
A commitment on our Line of Credit. The bank has had more than enough time to make this decision, and we now have an election. In my view I would call them on Monday, and let them know that absent a commitment by end-of-business we're shopping our business (which I think we should be doing anyway). I can get a signature loan for damn near a year's salary.
We're asking for a line of credit worth 13% of our annual CONTRACTED income.
I have multiple credit cards, each with 15-20% of my annual income in credit line. They should have committed two weeks ago.
What could Mr. Parker do today to solve the seniority issue?
The “seniority issue†has already been resolved in binding arbitration, through a process agreed to by all parties. The best thing Mr. Parker can do is abide by his legal obligation to uphold that process and the result. AWAPPA will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event any modification of the Nicolau award is agreed to.
NEED MORE ANSWERS?
You may submit your questions to info@awappa.org and we will do our best to post your question with an answer to the page within
AWAPPA is confident that USAPA’s failure is a matter of when, not if. Unfortunately, USAPA will succeed in causing all of us to pay dearly for their failure in legal fees and prolonged substandard contracts. That is one of many reasons why the best defense against USAPA is a vote for ALPA in the election. You might then wonder why USAPA is so confident in its assertions about achieving a date-of-hire seniority list. The short answer to that question is: because they’re trying to win an election!
The facts show that USAPA’s assertions are nothing more than arrogance fueled by seriously flawed legal advice. USAPA’s purported “right†to impose date of hire on us is based solely upon two things:
The legal opinion of an attorney who has a track record of representing independent unions that regularly fail.
The assumption that Doug Parker is willing to undo his acceptance of the Nicolau Award, or that USAPA will have the leverage to compel Parker to negotiate around that Award.
Let’s review the facts about each of those. First, consider the fate of the following so-called independent unions, each of which USAPA’s lawyer represented:
United Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - AMFA, a client of USAPA’s lawyer, displaced the IAM a few years ago. It failed miserably; United promptly subcontracted a huge number of mechanics’ jobs with the result that thousands of United mechanics are on furlough. An NMB representation election seeking to displace the independent union with the Teamsters is in the works. Knowledgeable airline industry observers have predicted with great confidence that the result will be either that the Teamsters will win or no union will win. In either case, the independent union is finished at United.
Northwest Airlines Aircraft Mechanics – The independent union USAPA’s lawyer represented displaced the IAM and later went on strike. The strike was a complete failure. All of the strikers were permanently replaced, mostly by subcontractors, and the actual mechanic class and craft that the independent union would in theory represent (if it actually had the support of the scabs, which it does not) would be a fraction of the original workforce.
Northwest Airlines Flight Attendants – USAPA’s lawyer represented an independent flight attendant union which won a representation election against the Teamsters. Apparently the flight attendants concluded that this so-called union was unable to represent their interests, because after only a few years of representation it was ousted in an NMB election and the AFA now represents the Northwest flight attendants.
Continental Flight Attendants – USAPA’s lawyer (through his actual paying client, a company called the McCormack Advisory Group) helped form an independent union for flight attendants in an effort to displace the IAM as the Continental flight attendant’s union. The IAM sued the independent union, its officers, and McCormack for misappropriating IAM membership lists (sound familiar?). McCormack consented to a judgment against it and paid damages to the IAM. The independent union and its officers ultimately settled with the IAM and those officers are now suing McCormack who is represented by USAPA’s law firm. In other words, USAPA’s lawyer’s client in that case (McCormak) is being sued by the independent union that same lawyer helped start.
And those unions failed without 1800 of the employees they represented actively opposed to the unions on the day they were certified.
Aside from the flawed legal analysis on which USAPA bases its assertion that it will bargain away the Nicolau award, USAPA’s leadership has publicly admitted that they do not know if Parker will negotiate a date-of-hire seniority list (or, for that matter, any list that deviates from the Nicolau award) with them (even if it is accompanied by a cheap contract), and that there is no “Plan B†if Parker refuses. In that regard, in the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, AWAPPA will put the Company on notice that it will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that it agrees to any modification of the Nicolau award.
We also learned this week that USAPA believes that they can defy the laws of negotiating by achieving their demands with zero leverage (video of that discussion coming soon). After all, what leverage will USAPA really ever have when over a third of the group it represents is “unsupportiveâ€, and the unity of the other 2/3 is questionable? There is already obvious evidence of large fissures in the “majority†2/3 of the group. It remains to be seen if USAPA will be able to retain a majority of support for more than a few days past a narrow election victory.
As you can see, USAPA’s rocky foundation is enough to almost virtually guarantee their failure. Your ALPA vote will prevent us from having to pay for that failure. AWAPPA will fight hard to minimize that price of failure, if your ALPA vote is not enough to prevent paying a price.
How do I donate to AWAPPA?
Although the goals of AWAPPA and Leonidas are similar, our strategies may differ somewhat. Both groups have agreed to coordinate efforts as much as possible to prevent a division of the pilot group. It is not our intent to ask pilots to choose sides. In fact, at this point, all that we ask is that you read our updates and consider our recommendations.
Having stated the ideal goal above, the potential does exist for one litigation effort to negatively influence another. If that becomes the case and we are unable to facilitate a coordinated effort, we will do our best to inform you of that situation.
If USAPA wins the election, and US Airways management subsequently agrees to Date of Hire, is ALPA going to provide resources to AWAPPA to assist in the resulting legal battle?
It is important to understand that we will have the resources and support necessary to succeed in defeating USAPA without any of ALPA’s assistance.
Although ALPA has not committed publicly to support AWAPPA’s efforts, we believe that ALPA will assist us in one form or another. Historically, ALPA has participated in precedent setting legal cases that could affect their ability to represent pilots, and our case definitely meets that standard.
As a reminder, AWAPPA will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that any modification of the Nicolau award is agreed to.
Who is funding USAPA ?
USAPA is currently funded by donations. But the current level of USAPA’s financial support is certainly questionable as evidenced by this excerpt of an internal USAPA email from only about one month ago:
A commitment on our Line of Credit. The bank has had more than enough time to make this decision, and we now have an election. In my view I would call them on Monday, and let them know that absent a commitment by end-of-business we're shopping our business (which I think we should be doing anyway). I can get a signature loan for damn near a year's salary.
We're asking for a line of credit worth 13% of our annual CONTRACTED income.
I have multiple credit cards, each with 15-20% of my annual income in credit line. They should have committed two weeks ago.
What could Mr. Parker do today to solve the seniority issue?
The “seniority issue†has already been resolved in binding arbitration, through a process agreed to by all parties. The best thing Mr. Parker can do is abide by his legal obligation to uphold that process and the result. AWAPPA will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event any modification of the Nicolau award is agreed to.
NEED MORE ANSWERS?
You may submit your questions to info@awappa.org and we will do our best to post your question with an answer to the page within
E
EastUS
Guest
Goody for you. Your group was also "confident" that "You won't even get 200 cards!!"
"It is important to understand that we will have the resources and support necessary to succeed in defeating USAPA without any of ALPA’s assistance." but,..immediately followed by:
"Although ALPA has not committed publicly to support AWAPPA’s efforts, we believe that ALPA will assist us in one form or another" Your Faith, (however utterly misguided) in Alpa is truly touching. I've zero doubt that, the moment you cease being any source of revenue...that they'll immediately drop everything, and ride in on white horses to your aide..whatever the cost to Alpa by way of funds and any/all potentially resulting litigation towards themselves....yep.
"NEED MORE ANSWERS?" Ahh...Yeah, just one would suffice sir = When have you guys EVER actually been proved correct in your assumptions? 😉
"Although the goals of AWAPPA and Leonidas are similar" Yes, yes..we fully understand those "Noble" and well expressed goals = "I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it". "It remains to be seen if USAPA will be able to retain a majority of support for more than a few days past a narrow election victory." No doubt..sigh....especially with your stated agenda..not too mention your clearly "Righteous Position". Heck..you should have the entire east group groveling in despair, tearing their hair out in lost-Alpo grief, and generally eating out of your hand immediately, if not sooner 😉 One question only = Do any/all of you guys/gals actually, even for a moment, believe your own BS?
ClueByFour
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The West group's lawyers, particularly, have kicked the snot out of every comer that the East group has put forth. Seeham won't be any different.
E
EastUS
Guest
Far be it for me, a mere individual mortal, to question ANY proclaimation issued by a self-ascribed spokesman for "The Entire World", 🙄 ("the entire world knows it's about Nic" as being just one) but: I'm content to see how things actually play out over time.
Care to set any wagers? 😉
sharktooth
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You really need to "preview". You might then catch your run-on sentences, hanging sentences, misspellings and just general illogic. But, then again, considering the state you are in, you might not.
and,
Why don't you vote for AWAPPA? They seem to do nothing wrong in your mind. Just write them in on the NMB voting page!
LeonidasLLC
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No. We've consulted two highly reputable firms and they are in total agreement with each other, as is a third firm which AWAAPA has retained. All three say the exact same thing: the binding arbitration follows to the successor union. USAPA theoretically can negotiate around the Award, but doing so exposes them to a clear cut DFR suit. Additionally, the company is a party to the original transition agreement and has already accepted the seniority list. For them to do anything that would dilute the Award only exposes them to a signficant liability; a liability which far outweighs any possible benefit to negotiating with USAPA.
We will cross that bridge if we ever come to it, but to date there has been no conflict whatsoever. Right now the only target on the horizon is USAPA and if we all become POWs on April 17th, the West pilots should feel quite secure that there are two different vehicles in place to forcefully advocate for them. Our rights are personal and they are vested - that's the law. The worst case scenario at this point is for the West to remain hostages until a federal judge can rule on their equitable claims for relief; a process that should only take 9-12 months.
But to reiterate once again, there is no disagreement between Leonidas and AWAAPA.
E
EastUS
Guest
Do yourselves a big favor, and knock off with the "heroic"..."WAR" rhetoric. Having had the distinct privelege of knowing a few prior residents of the Hanoi Hilton..your childish BS: "if we all become POWS" frankly...for myself, and I'll guess most other non-adolescents as well, is just completely disgusting drivel unworthy of anyone over the age of five..at the most. If it's the case that you truly wish to represent yourselves as assinine little "children"...then continue. You're doing a really great job thus far.
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