Pilot labor thread week 4/27-5/3

[EastUS]

Yea me too. But I really miss Junebug"Booshaka"172. Now that was fun.

Indeed sir...but...Bro'..be properly greatfull for what we yet have in these troubled times. There's yet an abundance of Fantasyland denizens prowling about, and still perversly exulting at the slightest swaying of conversational winds, and...still eagerly shouting even the very same "It's over!" as from a year ago. Consider what Comedy Club tickets actually cost...We're blessed here I mean not the slightest offence to any/all actually rational West folks in this...and yes..I know you have them out there...although you hide them very well.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

THe only people questioning the validity of the TA are people like yourself. For the rest of us in the real world, we know better. Your buddy elixr actually believes Nicolau is just a "hypothetical document", or something in that sense.
As always, you guys never fail to amuse.

I am so glad you know the answer. If I had the phone number of the ALPA attorney who said the TA disappeared I would gladly give it to you. Actually honey, you amuse the H_ _L out of me. Your diatribe in PHX was really hilarious.

 

[767jetz]

Actually I was going to respond to your earlier post. Just never got around to it. Then read this post with the same conditions.

Since you want to set the stage with your presupposed theories, whatever I say, if it disagrees with you, will be wrong. So actually you are being confrontational. Next time ask the question and leave out your interjections trying to control the answer. BTW. I do have an opinion on how to set the stage to move forward, but will not let you set it for me.

At least Eastus made an attempt to answer a straight question. You on the other hand like the tap dance routine. Fine. Suit yourself. I was not presupposing anything, nor was I trying to lead your answer, nor was I ever going claim you to be wrong for disagreeing. So I will try to ask one more time... how do you reconcile the fact that straight DOH would put West pilots who had a job on the merger date, on the street before recently furloughed East pilots who had nothing but recall rights, in the event of a future furlough? You are the one who keeps claiming that your agenda is pure and only serves to protect each pilot keeping what they came to the party with. I see a big hole in that claim in the event of a downturn and a furlough. (A real possibility in the current economy.) So where are the restrictions and protections for the West pilots who had a job when there were East pilots without? If there is something any of us who have asked this question before are not seeing, please tell us.

I do want to know one thing though. If a west Captain hits the street, how many west F/O's left before him/her? 800-900 range is my guess. That would mean the company downsized in the 20-25% range. Correct? Just curious about west numbers.

I used captain as an example. But in reality it could be a 757 F/O or Airbus F/O for that matter. It could be only 5%. The question remains the same. If fair in your eyes is that everyone keeps what they came with, why should a West pilot be on the street before an East pilot who was furloughed? Shouldn't a person also keep his same proximity to unemployment as before? I'd like to know. Because the same question would be posed if a US/UA merger occurs. In a down turn, it certainly wouldn't be fair for a UA pilot who was not furloughed to hit the streets before an East pilot who was just recalled from furlough. (and before you accuse me of having selfish motives, I assure you that I would survive a reduction in work force at UA unless it downsized more than 40%.)

 

[767jetz]

My preference would be furlough in reverse order of service on the line time accumulated. Find what fault with that you wish. That's my personal belief as to the best "middle ground" here, and not reflective of pure DOH, I'll grant...and not any voicing of majority opinion..and is my best efforts at considering compromise...

OK. Fair enough. So if I understand you correctly you are saying that instead of furloughing by strict DOH, a pilot who was "on the line" for 6 months goes before one who flew the line for 2 years, regardless of what the date associated with their initial employment. Is that correct? If so, then I commend you for coming up with an idea for a compromise that doesn't include DOH. And I thank you for your answer. While I might not agree 100% with that formula, it could be a starting point for discussion if I were involved directly. With things going the way they are, we very well might be having this same discussion by year end.

"I don't think it rings sincere to say you want everyone to keep what they brought to the table, except the baggage and misfortune that you had." Kindly refresh my memory as to when I've EVER whined around here about my career, or life in general? So..where's the supposed source for any "insincerity"?

I was not implying that you personally are whining or complaining about your career. But it has been the position of the USAPA and many East pilots that DOH is the ONLY way to protect attrition, and flying one came with, while also wanting to use the West as furlough fodder for the 1800 or so pilots who were on the unemployment line at the time of the merger. Saying "everyone keeps what they came with... except our previous cards dealt. Those we don't want anymore." is the insincere part. And that's what DOH with conditions and restrictions means. It's the details of those conditions and restrictions that are suspect. Not you personally.

"If you want to have protections to keep your attrition and resulting upgrades, then the West should keep theirs as well, in addition to the jobs they came with." I completely agree...shock time. It's NEVER been my position that any west pilot should become subject to displacement by any east person, and have often, directly stated exactly that.

Unfortunately, it is the position of your newly elected union and was directly stated as such by your negotiators in their conditions and restrictions.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Going to change the subject somewhat.

Passing through CLT yesterday I saw 7 Mesa jets parked on the west ramp early afternoon. 6 in USAirways colors and 1 in Delta's. In addition, a gate agent around C-5/7 area said 2 Mesa pilots walked off the plane saying they quit. Whats up with that? Is Mesa BK? Out of pilots? Job action? Just curious as I was planning to go to AUS in July and CLT-AUS non stop is Mesa.

 

[EastUS]

I see... selective application of the rules, all based on what the majority thinks. NOthing standard, just a fluid environment we will all live in. What applies today may not apply tomorrow- it all depends on what the group wants at that time. George Orwell wrote a great book about this- Animal Farm. Never mind logic, that would just get in the way with how USAPA conducts business. It is all about mob rule.

"I see... selective application of the rules, all based on what the majority thinks."

Welcome to America. If any/all are to ever be crucified in some upcoming merger by the same notions..so be it.

"NOthing standard, just a fluid environment we will all live in."

I might be so bold as to suggest gaining some actual moral standards, and consistently reasonable notions to proceed by in your life..DOH comes to mind..but..no matter

I'm most curious though = What's "standard" about your "Gimme Nic!..I want RELATIVE seniority..It's ALL about MEEE!"....ummm..scratch that last. The human race has an established failing of often being tasked by the "It's ALL about MEEE!" whack-cases/dictators/sociopaths/etc...and countless lives are continually snuffed out on an ongoing basis, or made utterly miserable by such "thinking"...sadly...nothing new there. What we all "really need" is yet more notions of "It's ALL relative...and it's relatively ALL about Meee!"...sheesh.

"George Orwell wrote a great book about this- Animal Farm" No kidding?!!??? Umm...did YOU ever actually READ it? You should try it some time. I'd be happy to quote you chapter and verse = "Some animals are MORE EQUAL than others"..seemingly as per the AWA "Righteous Position" = "Pigs are more equal than other animals".

" Never mind logic," Umm..sorry..I'm stuck with the "logic" thing...you might see your life much-improved by actually trying it someday...just a thought from an "old scraggly guy" and a very honest suggestion.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI:

USAPA News Flash

April 28, 2008

Concerning the USAPA/ALPA NMB election: Pursuant to Section 17 of the NMB Representation Manual, all allegations of election interference “must be submitted to the General Counsel no later than 4 p.m., Eastern Time, seven (7) business days after the date of the tally.â€￾

Since the Tally was held on April 17th, the seventh business day after the Tally is today, April 28, 2008. As of 4:00 PM today, ALPA has not filed any allegations of election interference, and therefore we can conclude that they have decided not to challenge the election.

 

[767jetz]

I'm not sure exactly when the most junior AWA captains came aboard....Regardless...I find the "big issue" of when a "Captain" goes as opposed to anyone else to be ridiculous... Are FO's supposedly "worthless" as people?...and, the mighty AWA Captains the only ones of concern?..sheesh.

I agree 100%. Which is exactly why, in my last post I pointed out that it shouldn't matter what seat they have. Everyone suffers when there is a reduction in workforce. The crap rolls down hill and is equally offensive to all. Which is a major reason many have a problem with DOH with conditions and restrictions, when combining groups of such disparate age, fleet size, and past fortune or lack thereof.

I just don't know anymore. maybe the best way to say it is that DOH protects those at the top, while relative seniority protects those at the bottom. And both have every right to some degree of protection. Somewhere in between probably lies a solution in any future mergers. Unfortunately, the waters have been poisoned by posturing, stubbornness, and a shear lack of compromise. Although I'm sure we disagree, I hold only individuals responsible for such actions, not ALPA National, USAPA or any other organization. People can always choose to do what's right regardless of who is watching. One can only hope that the water dilutes a bit before we are forced to drink from it again.

 

[nostradamus]

Why has your USCABA self appointed F.O. Ruler asked everybody to dump the USCABA lanyards/stickers/bagtags? Is he tired of being identified as a scab by all other alpa pilots thru out the country?

Keep those lanyards boys. You'll need them when you engage UAL in a hysterically funny campaign to take over ALPA.

NIC STICKS. Period. The end. It's over.

Would you like me to post the names of the real, backed by facts, scab list of america west pilots? Let me know. You have many current pilots with their names on it. This used to be an alpa sanctioned scab list, but alpa now allows and forgive scabs. The alpa leader john prater continued to work with scabs, he rationalizes this as ok because it benefited him.

Ansett

AFAP 89 America West
Edward AFAP 89 America West Scab Export Operation P AFAP 89, Scabbing Ansett
AFAP 89 America West Scab Export Operation
Michael AFAP 89 America West Scab Export Operation
, Charles AFAP 89 America West Scab Export Operation

L James AFAP 89 America West, “Jamie”


Wien Air Alaska


.................america west scabs

Your airline was born by the use of scabs and management pilots who ran drugs, these are facts.

 

[EastUS]

At least Eastus made an attempt to answer a straight question.

"At least Eastus made an attempt to answer a straight question." At that point? = You're no longer worth actual conversation again. Inexperienced, arrogant/utterly clueless simpletons, but nonetheless opinionated punks can be found in many dumpsters, by way of personal testimony to their lifetime "wisdom". You asked a supposedly "honest question"..you received an honest answer, that apparently, simply wasted my time, even slight good will, and any attempts at reasonable courtesy it seems.

"I just don't know anymore" A huge epihany..that's "new" in what way? No matter = it's at least a start, one can learn from there.

 

[luvn737s]

767Jetz-

I don't now why you bother engaging these guys. You could keep asking and asking until they come back with an answer you like, but it doesn't mean their actions would follow their words. They defend the indefensible until it trips them upthen they revert to "at least we got rid of ALPA". They gloat about their pyrrhic victory that has proven fruitless. Day one came and went and they have done nothing. They have proven an unwillingness to engage the west as proven by their reluctance to come to PHX before or after the election. Shall the east come to the tabernacle in Charlotte to pay homage to Bradford?

The east cannot hide their reputation and it will be many years of demonstrating uncharcteristic integrity before they will build the trust necessary to be a relevant participant in growing any airline they are part of.

 

[uSCABa]

Would you like me to post the names of the real, backed by facts, scab list of america west pilots? Let me know. You have many current pilots with their names on it. This used to be an alpa sanctioned scab list, but alpa now allows and forgive scabs. The alpa leader john prater continued to work with scabs, he rationalizes this as ok because it benefited him.

I've seen the list of the real scabs...they're the ones that submitted the NMB cards for USCABA. Union Busters are SCABS.

Prater is an impotent drooling bobblehead...I'll give you that. He should resign.


You busted my union, you stripped me of representation and benefits, and USCABA has no plan of action. You are a SCAB.

I'll just tell you that AWAPPA is incredibly well funded at this point, and we've already spoken with UAL MEC. Guess which side they're on? Hint: it's not the fantasy side that your parasitic lawyer dreams about.

Nic. Sticks, period. The end. it's over.

 

[EastUS]

Would you like me to post the names of the real, backed by facts, scab list of america west pilots? .

Nos..you're playing to the "kiddie corner" with that, and facts/etc will make no evident differance to such...ever. I must note that I think it in our mutual best interests to try and form some "family", however "dysfunctional", from our respective groups in any case. There are good and decetn people out west..the whack-jobs freqently posting around here, I must believe, dont' fully represent all of those guys/gals...at least...I hope not.

 

[EastUS]

I've seen the list of the real scabs...they're the ones that submitted the NMB cards for USCABA. Union Busters are SCABS.

Prater is an impotent drooling bobblehead...I'll give you that. He should resign.


You busted my union, you stripped me of representation and benefits, and USCABA has no plan of action. You are a SCAB.

I'll just tell you that AWAPPA is incredibly well funded at this point, and we've already spoken with UAL MEC. Guess which side they're on? Hint: it's not the fantasy side that your parasitic lawyer dreams about.

Nic. Sticks, period. The end. it's over.

Sigh..I hate when that happens

"You busted my union, you stripped me of representation and benefits, and USCABA has no plan of action. You are a SCAB." Yeah, yeah...etc..whiny BS. Whenever you want to actually participate within your actual, and legally elected Uijion..just do so. Whining's pathetic where any semblance of supposed "men" are concerned.

 

[nostradamus]

You busted my union, you stripped me of representation and benefits, and USCABA has no plan of action. You are a SCAB.

We were taking our garbage out, just call it collateral garbage.