Pilot labor thread week 4/27-5/3

[AAA73Pilot]

To make such a statement speaks volumes as to how you think. It is obvious you are so desperate to believe DOH has a significant place in merging seniority lists, when in fact there isn't even a mention of it in Allegheny Mohawk and the Federal guidelines just published.

Here is a clue, unions like at Southwest, United, Delta and a lot of smaller carriers do just fine. You want to believe the whole world is wrecked without it because you depend so much on DOH for your personal advancement. Well, Nicolau saw right through you guys as well as the NWA and UAL MEC's (reference their independent statements as to the fairness of Nicolau seniority integration). Maybe one day you will come in from left field...

Keep it in context dear. Here again is the rest of my reply.

4. If "DOH is, in fact DOA. RIP" then why have a union? Everything else is and was replaceable at a lessor cost. That only leaves some core union principles. Which ALPA has neglected to use/protect a long time ago. For which I can only say is good riddance. Maybe ALPA will change, but I doubt it.

There is no desperation there. A-M does not mention it, you're right. However look at any and all the of the outcomes using A-M and what do you see? In addition, in what direction do you see ALPA changing? I don't see anything. Except send us your dues so we can overcharge you for "Union" benefits. Addendum: I just went back to my old ALPA statements and compared their bill with my new projected one. I saved over $400 for the same benefits. Not bad huh? BTW. I will get to keep those benefits if USAPA should be replaced. Unlike the post I put up of ALPA cancelling my insurance Apr. 18th. Like I said, "Some union". :down:

Wow. You do reach don't you? Southwest=SWAPA. DAL, UAL=ALPA? But unions? You imply any and all are independents. My personal advancement? As usual your twists and spins mean nothing to me. The future conditions and restrictions will only mean I will have access to the attrition that US east brought to the table. You will have access to your attrition you brought. If you think there is going to be growth here anytime soon, good luck with that. I hope I'm wrong.

As for Nic. The man didn't see squat. But that is my opinion. I still think this list was a parting shot at destroying ALPA as his swan song gift to us at his retirement. He succeeded. Oh well.

 

[767jetz]

To make such a statement speaks volumes as to how you think. It is obvious you are so desperate to believe DOH has a significant place in merging seniority lists, when in fact there isn't even a mention of it in Allegheny Mohawk and the Federal guidelines just published.

Here is a clue, unions like at Southwest, United, Delta and a lot of smaller carriers do just fine. You want to believe the whole world is wrecked without it because you depend so much on DOH for your personal advancement. Well, Nicolau saw right through you guys as well as the NWA and UAL MEC's (reference their independent statements as to the fairness of Nicolau seniority integration). Maybe one day you will come in from left field...

You are correct. The only way UA pilots will be on board would be a very strong, iron-clad prenup, agreed to by both sides, without DOH or a staple job, and with enough money and protections to make everyone somewhat happy, but not getting everything they want. This will be a precondition of anything moving forward (absent a BK, which I don't think is in anyone's immediate future). Tilton knows that you can't merge an airline the size of UA without the overwhelming majority of people who actually make the airplanes move from A to B cooperating. Without us the whole thing comes to a screeching halt. (literally.) The last time a CEO balked on a prenup... well let's just say the result was not what they hoped for.

If anyone at US thinks that merging with UA is a good thing, then they have to bury their old preconceptions of how they think things should now be or should have been before, and start thinking what's actually workable for their future. Otherwise any merger between the groups will be DOA and there will be no need to even discuss Nicolau, or USAPA vs ALPA.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

AAA73,

In your opinion, how is USAPA going to appease the Empire pilots that are demanding your own least be modified to date-of-hire.

Is USAPA planning on making that change?

You asked for my opinion, here it is. Simply, No.

 

[hp_fa]

For what it is worth I just did a calculation of the total number of pilots that a combined airline would have based on the most current information I could find. The numbers I found were UA had 6,518 pilots and US had 4,675 pilots for a total of 11,193 pilots. Accordingly, if a merger occurred, UA would constitute approximately 58% of the total pilots.

 

[767jetz]

A-M does not mention it, you're right. However look at any and all the of the outcomes using A-M and what do you see?

You keep saying this over and over. "Any and All???????????" Show us all of the outcomes. How many? I believe it was only one... A-M.

Guess what? Nicolau was also a precedent, and a more recent one. Every merger will be assessed on it's own merits. Just because A-M ended up one way does not preclude or dictate it would the result the same way in the present day with circumstance so different than they were back then. You even admit there is no mention of DOH in the new law. Only a guideline for a process. And you don't have case after case of precedent to fall back on. Tell me, what was the relative size, age, fleet, domiciles, etc of A & M at the time? And don't try to simplify your answer by saying it doesn't have any relevance... because certainly it does. You have hung your hat on the DOH argument before and look where it's gotten you. Look where it got you in 2000. See my previous post with regard to that. Unless you start to try to see things from a different perspective, you will never even get to a point of being able to debate an actual integration because a merger with UA would be DOA long before it got that far.

My personal advancement? As usual your twists and spins mean nothing to me. The future conditions and restrictions will only mean I will have access to the attrition that US east brought to the table. You will have access to your attrition you brought. If you think there is going to be growth here anytime soon, good luck with that.

Really? Is that all? Well I beg to differ. You keep avoiding the ugly truth with regard to your scheme. You actually want any reductions to go strictly DOH as well, putting captains on the street while your recent furloughees continue to move metal. What makes you think this is fair to the West? DO you think UA plots would let such a fate come our way as well, just because you think your years of suffering earn you a special position at someone else's airline at their expense? You talk about keeping what one brings to the table so eloquently when it comes to attrition. But when the conversation moves to reductions, you suddenly speak from the other side of your mouth. If you truly want everyone to keep what they brought, then that should also apply to the job they brought, and their proximity to the unemployment line, don't you think? One can only assume you would try to foist the same fate on your next dance partner... Keep any benefits but shed all the dangers and misfortune you bring. How convenient.

Come to think of it, in 2000 when UA was talking about fences to protect what everyone brought with them to the party (just like you claim now), you guys were besides yourselves with anger and disgust. The name calling ensued with you guys slinging the mud that we were greedy for suggesting such blasphemy. Sound familiar? Again, how convenient. And you wonder why you have no credibility? You wonder why no one wants to have anything to do with you? Your history speaks for itself.

Let me end by reminding you of one of your very own philosophies... majority rules. In fact it even rules despite any annoying legal rulings (according to you), because we will negotiate what we want and force it on you through sheer numbers. It doesn't have to be this way, but that appears to be the only thing you understand. So we might as well speak your language.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Hey aaa so who's on your merger committee? Oh yeah you got the funds to hire a merger attorney? It's going to get very expensive for you boys. Let me guess what your strategy is going into arbitration, DOH or nothing, right?

Your questions:
I guess we'll staff a MC when needed. I can say one thing for certain though, former member Bob K. will not be on it.
Yes we do have the funds if needed.
Comment is speculation.
Lastly, if we get to an arbitration then I guess the strategy is to be determined. Anything else I say would be my opinion. Which I am sure would be 180 degrees outside of what you think. Oh well, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[767jetz]

For what it is worth I just did a calculation of the total number of pilots that a combined airline would have based on the most current information I could find. The numbers I found were UA had 6,518 pilots and US had 4,675 pilots for a total of 11,193 pilots. Accordingly, if a merger occurred, UA would constitute approximately 58% of the total pilots.

I think your numbers are off a bit. I don't know the exact head count, but a quick look at the seniority numbers puts the junior UA pilot with a seniority of around 8000 for 2007. 2008 saw very few if any retirements and several hundred hired.

 

[767jetz]

You asked for my opinion, here it is. Simply, No.

Then the next question is, why not?

If DOH is the cornerstone of a union as you claim, and it is the only thing that really matters, why not adjust everyone's seniority to reflect true DOH. According to you, past agreements and rulings are irrelevant since your new union dictates a DOH list. So please simply explain to everyone here what seems on the surface to be a double standard. I'm all ears...

 

[hp_fa]

It could well be wrong, but the UA information came from here and the US information came from here.

 

[EastUS]

To make such a statement speaks volumes as to how you think.

"Here is a clue," Your current positon is entirely based on DOH...True or False? "To make such a statement speaks volumes as to how you think" or don't actually "think". OK...for the sake of argument let's go with DOH being utterly worthless. What POSSIBLE, utterly awesome, intrinsic value do YOU suppose yourself to have for placement within any/all future flying work? Is there ANY actual reason why ANY other group of pilots should give a hair off a rat's arse concern about you, simply due to your AWA tattoo?...or; is when you were hired of some usefull notion? yeah, yeah...we all know what you supposedly "brought"..etc/ad nauseum..which should be of great concern to another pilot group....ummm..why?

Eliminating DOH from any/all union processes will utlimately allow management teams to use, abuse and dispose of pilots like so many spare parts, without the slightest concern on their part. Whenever any person or group's value is rendered "relative"....you've succeeded in rendering said individual or group "relatively" worthless, and certainly, worth no more than the next new-hire or even replacement worker/scab fresh off the street....PERIOD. That so many seem so utterly clueless as to that's amazing to me, but obviously, is the sad, nay, fully pathetic case here.

"Maybe one day you will come in from left field..." I'm hardly holding my breath on that.....

 

[Leonidas]

Then the next question is, why not?

If DOH is the cornerstone of a union as you claim, and it is the only thing that really matters, why not adjust everyone's seniority to reflect true DOH. According to you, past agreements and rulings are irrelevant since your new union dictates a DOH list. So please simply explain to everyone here what seems on the surface to be a double standard. I'm all ears...

Well if this happens, the east won't be much of a problem. you can bet every single awa guy will do whatever is necessary to put the screws to the eastholes, so with 10000 combined ua/aw pilots, I think we can put these guys to bed, they will be so diluted that they will cease to matter.

 

[EastUS]

Well if this happens, the east won't be much of a problem. you can bet every single awa guy will do whatever is necessary to put the screws to the eastholes, so with 10000 combined ua/aw pilots, I think we can put these guys to bed, they will be so diluted that they will cease to matter.

"I think we can put these guys to bed," You'll perhaps forgive my not being all-a-flutter over what you allegedly "think" I'll let your notions of what's appropriate for "Brother Pilots" speak for themselves...as they've always so clearly done = "I want the captain seat..and, most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!" Time and events will tell the tale...and you've yet to be proven correct at any level. I'm quite sure that management teams everywhere would love to make you a poster boy for true Unionism....enough like yourself?..and we can all be working for minimum wage, as entirely disposable, and fully interchangeable "spare parts". No matter =Take your best shot.

 

[Leonidas]

"I think we can put these guys to bed," You'll perhaps forgive my not being all-a-flutter over what you allegedly "think" I'll let your notions of what's appropriate for "Brother Pilots" speak for themselves...as they've always so clearly done Time and events will tell the tale...and you've yet to be proven correct at any level.

Well majority rule is the only democratic way, isn't that right? stanby to be "moot", lol.

 

[EastUS]

Well majority rule is the only democratic way, isn't that right? stanby to be "moot", lol.

"I'm quite sure that management teams everywhere would love to make you a poster boy for true Unionism....enough like yourself?..and we can all be working for minimum wage, as entirely disposable, and fully interchangeable "spare parts". No matter =Take your best shot."

I'm content to see just how events actually unfold. Your particular notions "may" not be so utterly universal as you imagine.

 

[nostradamus]

This will be a precondition of anything moving forward (absent a BK, which I don't think is in anyone's immediate future).

With oil prices increasing with no slowing seen in the near future, BK is a possibility.

"On Tuesday, United’s chief financial officer, Frederic F. Brace, said repeatedly that the airline was in compliance with the covenants of its bank agreements. But, Mr. Brace added, “With the recent spike in fuel prices and the softening economy the trajectory of our covenant coverage is downward.â€￾

Because of steps the airline was taking to cut costs, he said, “it’s really very difficult to predict whether we will have an issue or not.â€￾

Continental Abandons Merger Talks With United click for article