Ideas to pass a TA with the mechanics.

[bigjets]

Pay me $50hr, cut my medical expense down 50% and keep everything else the same. 2 year contract and I'm happy.

 
 
We would all be happy with that, you must hang on Bob's every word, (Bob telling the members that kind of contract is achievable will cause nothing but delayed contracts for years) but that will never happen. Our medical is the same as everyone else, $50 an hour is a lot more then Delta or UAL our closest competitors, and I'm thinking a 5 year term will be what AA is looking for. I would expect our new union to negotiate for a 3% raise, for every 12 months after the contract is amendable, so AA doesn't get a free ride by stalling on contract negotiations for years. I believe the IAM at USAir had that. Expecting something good but doable is the mind set we need to be in or we will be like the FA's leaving money on the table.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 
you have to get over your OH mentality, AA kept this % of overhaul, which i imagine is close to what delta and ual both have. plus 3% over is not outrageous, it's what AA offered the AA FA's they just didn't vote it in, because there were FA's who wanted more or who thought AA was bluffing about going to arbitration.
 
AA offered to the FA's
 
more vacation time
more bankable sick time hours 1000 to 1500
a higher pay rate to Delta's FA's
better work rules then Delta
9.9% contribution to 401k
 
There are 24000 FA's, for 10000 mechanics to get 3% better then Delta is not outrageous 
we got a huge raise in 2001 which was a little better then NWA before the airline industry changed.
 
Now is the time to get a good deal, i'm sure AA wants to know what it's labor costs will be for the next 5 years, fuel is low, profits are high, AA wants a JCBA in place. The APFA just gave AA an extra $82M to play with.
 
Bob's heart is in the right place, but his thought process is too embittered with the past. Getting 3% above Delta is doable, 3% above UPS is greedy and all it will do is drag us down. 

The pilots and FAs were not as far from the top as we are.  As far as O/H mentality I am not sure what you're talking about.  Maybe your line mentality is getting in the way.  The bottom line is that United and Delta have overhaul AMTs too and they get paid much more than our O/H or line guys.  Sure I would love to get my vacation back and my holidays and sick time and longevity and all that stuff but I have no confidence in the TWU or the alliance to get it for us.  You must understand that the ATD is run by Fleet Service and they are not going to allow us to get several dollars an hour while they get less.  That is not O/H mentality, that is realistic.  It doesn't matter what Parker offers, the ATD is going to divide it up equally and while FS and Stores are also not as far from the top as we are, we will remain below UA and Delta in wages while they go above both.  If you don't think this will happen you have not been paying attention the last 30 years.  This is why many of us have been trying to get out of the TWU for a long time.

 

[bigjets]

The pilots and FAs were not as far from the top as we are.  As far as O/H mentality I am not sure what you're talking about.  Maybe your line mentality is getting in the way.  The bottom line is that United and Delta have overhaul AMTs too and they get paid much more than our O/H or line guys.  Sure I would love to get my vacation back and my holidays and sick time and longevity and all that stuff but I have no confidence in the TWU or the alliance to get it for us.  You must understand that the ATD is run by Fleet Service and they are not going to allow us to get several dollars an hour while they get less.  That is not O/H mentality, that is realistic.  It doesn't matter what Parker offers, the ATD is going to divide it up equally and while FS and Stores are also not as far from the top as we are, we will remain below UA and Delta in wages while they go above both.  If you don't think this will happen you have not been paying attention the last 30 years.  This is why many of us have been trying to get out of the TWU for a long time.

AA offered the 24k FAs at AA industry Leading wages, 3% above Delta is not ridiculous, it goes along with everything Doug has said in his townhall meetings, $50 bucks an hour is where Doug has said he will let it go to arbitration! Based on the APA proposal.. We don't have as much OH as before our costs are more inline with everyone else so a 3% above delta is right there.

We are comparing to our major competitors UAL and Delta, not swa, ups, or FedEx. Which would be great but not something that will be achieved based on townhall meetings and the FA's TA. Look at many fewer mechs and how much is outsourced compared to pre BK. We will just have to see what's going to happen, hopefully AMFA gets in or the TWU gets decertified.

 

[Vortilon]

Pay me $50hr, cut my medical expense down 50% and keep everything else the same. 2 year contract and I'm happy.

That might work for you guys on the US Air side - not so much on the AA side.

 

[Vortilon]

 
you have to get over your OH mentality, AA kept this % of overhaul, which i imagine is close to what delta and ual both have. plus 3% over is not outrageous, it's what AA offered the AA FA's they just didn't vote it in, because there were FA's who wanted more or who thought AA was bluffing about going to arbitration.
 
AA offered to the FA's
 
more vacation time
more bankable sick time hours 1000 to 1500
a higher pay rate to Delta's FA's
better work rules then Delta
9.9% contribution to 401k
 
There are 24000 FA's, for 10000 mechanics to get 3% better then Delta is not outrageous 
we got a huge raise in 2001 which was a little better then NWA before the airline industry changed.
 
Now is the time to get a good deal, i'm sure AA wants to know what it's labor costs will be for the next 5 years, fuel is low, profits are high, AA wants a JCBA in place. The APFA just gave AA an extra $82M to play with.
 
Bob's heart is in the right place, but his thought process is too embittered with the past. Getting 3% above Delta is doable, 3% above UPS is greedy and all it will do is drag us down.
 
 
The FAs currently receive a 9.9% contribution to their 401K.  Just sayin...

 

[Vortilon]

This is what scares me about Bobs rhetoric,

Bob sits across from the company

Company says here is our offer, 3% higher pay then delta plus all the other contract items given up in 2003. That would be a huge raise for us.

Bob says, we want $51 an hour, profit sharing, half the cost for insurance, plus a 5% raise every year on this 2 year contract, plus everything we gave up in 2003 with retro pay to 2003 to make us whole. (which would be great) and we will not move from this position.

Company says, we will meet again in 3 months.

And this goes on for 4 years until the next economic downturn.

 
 
Bob would be the least of my worries.  I have suffered 29 years of industial union negotiators stealing from AMTs, and redisributing unfairly to other work groups.  Bob is aware of this disparity, and is out to correct it.  If you are an AMT as you claim, then it should be apparent that Bob has been fighting for better AMT recognition through pay and benefits for years.  I have no problem with Bob using UPS or Fed Ex - as examples for pay and benefits that other heavy aircraft AMTs make. 

 

[bigjets]

 
 
Bob would be the least of my worries.  I have suffered 29 years of industial union negotiators stealing from AMTs, and redisributing unfairly to other work groups.  Bob is aware of this disparity, and is out to correct it.  If you are an AMT as you claim, then it should be apparent that Bob has been fighting for better AMT recognition through pay and benefits for years.  I have no problem with Bob using UPS or Fed Ex - as examples for pay and benefits that other heavy aircraft AMTs make. 

 
I do like Bob's thinking better then old guys thinking. 
 
I will say this about Bob, at least he puts himself out there, hopefully our union which ever that might be, will able to accomplish something, and hopefully we are not dumb enough to turn it down (if it's worthy of accepting) 

 

[Deleted member 14439]

Pay me $50hr, cut my medical expense down 50% and keep everything else the same. 2 year contract and I'm happy.

Well I guess that would be okay pay wise. However on the LAA side we need our holidays, vacation and sick time back just to name a few things.

 

[Bob Owens]

This is what scares me about Bobs rhetoric,

Bob sits across from the company

Company says here is our offer, 3% higher pay then delta plus all the other contract items given up in 2003. That would be a huge raise for us.

Bob says, we want $51 an hour, profit sharing, half the cost for insurance, plus a 5% raise every year on this 2 year contract, plus everything we gave up in 2003 with retro pay to 2003 to make us whole. (which would be great) and we will not move from this position.

Company says, we will meet again in 3 months.

And this goes on for 4 years until the next economic downturn.

The second they walk away from the table file for mediation and release, then let the members know that they are the ones who have the power to expedite talks.  The fact is the TWU International was just as responsible for the long negotiations as the company, they refused to move the process forward. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
We would all be happy with that, you must hang on Bob's every word, (Bob telling the members that kind of contract is achievable will cause nothing but delayed contracts for years) but that will never happen. Our medical is the same as everyone else, $50 an hour is a lot more then Delta or UAL our closest competitors, and I'm thinking a 5 year term will be what AA is looking for. I would expect our new union to negotiate for a 3% raise, for every 12 months after the contract is amendable, so AA doesn't get a free ride by stalling on contract negotiations for years. I believe the IAM at USAir had that. Expecting something good but doable is the mind set we need to be in or we will be like the FA's leaving money on the table.

And in 1999 when we were making $25/hr you were probably saying that all the mechanics who were saying they wanted at least $40/hr were nuts, until the mechanics at NWA got $37, then everyone else got it. When NWA got $37 that was the top, above SWA, above Fed Ex and above UPS. Prior to 1999 we never took pay cuts, in 2003 we took a 25% pay cut and still, 13 years later have not recovered most of that 25% which has been compounded by inflation and additional cuts. 
 
5 year contracts, why would any union member ever say that a five year contract is OK. Remember long term contracts are never good for workers. The company can always get out of them, workers can't.  
 
Keep believing what the company tells you. 

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Isn't all this back and forth about what we should get come contract time a bit mute?​

 ​

By the time we get the SOC and get the combined workforces merged and both our contracts become amendable won't the economic times have changed?
 
Both US and AA members have posted here and the real question I have for the mechanics since at this point that is the group I am concerned with. My class and craft.
 
Do any of YOU really want the TWU Logo or the IAM Logo or a combined Association Logo at the Top or on the front page of our contract Book.
 
Haven't we all seen over the last 20+ yrs that these two unions are not going to get us what we think we deserve. Or even close.
 
Remember all the slogans and promises that we heard, or have all of you forgot all of that?
 
There are so many threads both here and on the US side that show how the mechanics are fed up with the politics of both of these Unions.
 
Both the TWU and the IAM have changed top leaders and just what did we the mechanics Get from that? ZERO...
 
We got money in 2003, then they took it away, so getting $50.00hr or even a number in the 40's is not going to mean a hill of beans if the TWU/IAM/BOTH are still our Union now is it?
No SNAP Back or retro so why are we still thinking of having either of these Unions here at the NEW AA?

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Your write, its mute.

But seriously, you guys should dump the TWU before anything else.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

AA offered the 24k FAs at AA industry Leading wages, 3% above Delta is not ridiculous, it goes along with everything Doug has said in his townhall meetings, $50 bucks an hour is where Doug has said he will let it go to arbitration! Based on the APA proposal.. We don't have as much OH as before our costs are more inline with everyone else so a 3% above delta is right there.

We are comparing to our major competitors UAL and Delta, not swa, ups, or FedEx. Which would be great but not something that will be achieved based on townhall meetings and the FA's TA. Look at many fewer mechs and how much is outsourced compared to pre BK. We will just have to see what's going to happen, hopefully AMFA gets in or the TWU gets decertified.

Ok let me explain.....  When AA went into BK and the TWU was talking about wages they (TWU) admitted that if we all went to industry standard wages then Fleet and Stores would take pay cuts and AMTs would get raises.  Did this result in AMTs getting more than Fleet or Stores?  No it did not.  It actually resulted in us getting less.  If you think the TWU would allow AMTs to get a higher percentage raise then FS or Stores even though we are much farther behind Delta/United wages than they are you are delusional.  It ain't gonna happen.  Ask any FS who frequent this site if they would be ok with getting a 3% raise while we were getting 7% (or higher)?  There is no way they would let that happen no matter how far behind the rest of the industry we are.  Don't believe me?  Wait and see.  When we are offered the same % as FS and Stores I expect you to issue an apology.  If I am wrong I will do the same, but I would expect you are going to be the one to eat crow and not me.  The bus driver union that has nothing but Fleet Service Clerks in the ATD will look out for their own at our expense just like always.  The TWU divides the money between the groups unless there are concessions then the AMTs take the brunt of it.  What makes you think this will be any different?  But call it O/H mentality or anything else you want.  We'll see who eats crow won't we?  What is hilarious to me is that you say I have O/H mentality while you are drinking the TWU Koolaid.  We'll get em this time right? hahahahahaha

 

[bigjets]

The second they walk away from the table file for mediation and release, then let the members know that they are the ones who have the power to expedite talks.  The fact is the TWU International was just as responsible for the long negotiations as the company, they refused to move the process forward.

We go to mediation for YEARS, we will never be released as we are the largest airline in the world, there is a republican congress and most likely a republican president. It's like you don't know history, and are wrapped up in your own rhetorical spin that your not opening your eyes to reality.

 

[bigjets]

Ok let me explain.....  When AA went into BK and the TWU was talking about wages they (TWU) admitted that if we all went to industry standard wages then Fleet and Stores would take pay cuts and AMTs would get raises.  Did this result in AMTs getting more than Fleet or Stores?  No it did not.  It actually resulted in us getting less.  If you think the TWU would allow AMTs to get a higher percentage raise then FS or Stores even though we are much farther behind Delta/United wages than they are you are delusional.  It ain't gonna happen.  Ask any FS who frequent this site if they would be ok with getting a 3% raise while we were getting 7% (or higher)?  There is no way they would let that happen no matter how far behind the rest of the industry we are.  Don't believe me?  Wait and see.  When we are offered the same % as FS and Stores I expect you to issue an apology.  If I am wrong I will do the same, but I would expect you are going to be the one to eat crow and not me.  The bus driver union that has nothing but Fleet Service Clerks in the ATD will look out for their own at our expense just like always.  The TWU divides the money between the groups unless there are concessions then the AMTs take the brunt of it.  What makes you think this will be any different?  But call it O/H mentality or anything else you want.  We'll see who eats crow won't we?  What is hilarious to me is that you say I have O/H mentality while you are drinking the TWU Koolaid.  We'll get em this time right? hahahahahaha

 
If I'm wrong I'll eat crow to you or Bob, I would rather Bob be right then you. The big difference from the 2003 and 2012 contracts is, in 2003 the company was holding a gun to our pensions, retiree medical, and OH. In 2012  AA shot the pension and retiree medical, and threatened OH, which Tulsa capitulated and voted in the contract (hence the OH mentality) then knee capped OH, with AFW closing and work outsourced.
 
Since we no longer have pension, retiree medical, or OH holding us down there is no reason not to get at LEAST 3% above Delta. The TWU gave everything to save jobs, only to lose jobs, pay and benefits. There is more to a/c maint then just Tulsa, a lot of former Tulsa guys are realizing what a bad contract TULE voted in.