Ideas to pass a TA with the mechanics.

[MetalMover]

I agree with you here Bob, all except for one thing,  you guys should also still be able to share in the Profit Sharing too.  Now if they wanted to offer the mechanics a percentile above and beyond current UPS pay then maybe you could afford to forego the PS and invest your money for retirement as you see fit.  I honestly don't see why the company did not offer this it is a total write-off for the company, make big profits then share, don't make profits nobody shares and it cost the company absolutely nothing.  BTW;  Are the UPS mechanics in current nego's as we speak?  We also think we should get the UPS pay as well, all airlines should, there is more responsibility with the human lives on passenger airlines as far as the mechanics and pilots are concerned than there is with the package haulers.  Hope you guys get it at AA with or without PS, however, you should not ever say that the company can keep the PS if they were pay UPS wages, besides their wages are fixin to go up after they are done nego, think about it...

The PS formula was so stingy, they could have afforded to keep it along with the raise.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

A quick question how much does rent at a terminal at ord or lga cost compared to a whare house in a secondary airport. How much more insurance does AA have to pay to fly humans, compared to ups and their cargo? How much more does cost an airline for pax service as to whare house workers?
Has anyone read how the cargo airlines are parking aircraft or how cargo airlines aren't making as much revenue as expected. People are more likely to ship packages in 3-5 business days as opposed to the more lucrative over night Delivery. Pick up an issue of aviation weekly sometime.

That is a red herring with regard to this discussion. Breaking down costs between a cargo carrier and a pax carrier to base compensation is not realistic. Using profits based on GAAP methods to create a formula for total compensation is.

 

[Bob Owens]

A quick question how much does rent at a terminal at ord or lga cost compared to a whare house in a secondary airport. How much more insurance does AA have to pay to fly humans, compared to ups and their cargo? How much more does cost an airline for pax service as to whare house workers?

 

How much does a fleet of thousands of trucks along with drivers, fuel, maintenance, fuel etc so they can deliver each package to each location cost? What difference does it make, what part of $1.2 billion in just one quarter did you miss? 
 
 

 

Nothing less then industry leading is expected. Mechs should not listen to the S*** House lawyers who think they are business/financial experts who WILL pull us down to a mediocre contract years from now.
 

Yet you will still let the company define the industry. 

 

[Bob Owens]

ha. So you want to go to line only? 
 
I would take a look at what amount of work UPS send out compared to AA. 
 
I would even compare how many line guys UPS has compared to AA. 
 
We (Delta) do a ton of UPS work fwiw..... 

A response like that is expected from a non-union bootlicker. 
 
Line mechanic per aircraft is comparable. We looked at that during negotiations. The company friendly economist tried to spin the numbers as far as the UPS fleet, so I contacted the Pilots union and they gave me the correct number, at this point they may have more line mechanics per airplane than AA. 
 
UPS was sending out their OH when our pay rates were around the same, that hasn't changed. 
 
Now cut your hair before it touches your collar and don't even think about growing a beard. 

 

[topDawg]

A quick question how much does rent at a terminal at ord or lga cost compared to a whare house in a secondary airport. How much more insurance does AA have to pay to fly humans, compared to ups and their cargo? How much more does cost an airline for pax service as to whare house workers?

Has anyone read how the cargo airlines are parking aircraft or how cargo airlines aren't making as much revenue as expected. People are more likely to ship packages in 3-5 business days as opposed to the more lucrative over night Delivery. Pick up an issue of aviation weekly sometime.


Less Disney world logic from a 7 year old and more real world expectations.

Industry leading contract is a good start.

As far as OH is concerned, OH is no longer a factor, as AA has decided it can make money with this amount of outsourcing. No longer will the excuse of, we have pensions, retiree medical, and ALL our own Maint. So this what we can pay you.

Nothing less then industry leading is expected. Mechs should not listen to the S*** House lawyers who think they are business/financial experts who WILL pull us down to a mediocre contract years from now.

good post Duke. 
 

A response like that is expected from a non-union bootlicker. 
 
Line mechanic per aircraft is comparable. We looked at that during negotiations. The company friendly economist tried to spin the numbers as far as the UPS fleet, so I contacted the Pilots union and they gave me the correct number, at this point they may have more line mechanics per airplane than AA. 
 
UPS was sending out their OH when our pay rates were around the same, that hasn't changed. 
 
Now cut your hair before it touches your collar and don't even think about growing a beard. 

Oh thats cute. your trying to make this personal. 
 
I'll play. Im such a bootlicker......wanna compare W2s? how about just base pay rates? Or profit sharing? 
 
yeah genius, the Delta guys are the problem.   
 
Scary that anyone would vote you into any kind of leadership spot.....but maybe thats why you and the TWU keep signing deals that are well below us bootlickers.         

 

[Bob Owens]

good post Duke. 
 
Oh thats cute. your trying to make this personal. 
 
I'll play. Im such a bootlicker......wanna compare W2s? how about just base pay rates? Or profit sharing? 
 
yeah genius, the Delta guys are the problem.   
 
Scary that anyone would vote you into any kind of leadership spot.....but maybe thats why you and the TWU keep signing deals that are well below us bootlickers.         

So proud that you hide behind an alias. Did I say Delta guys or just you in particular? Don't try and drag everyone else into your argument. Not surprising you would like Duke, he is anti union as well. As far as us signing deals below Delta you can even ask your anti-union buddy Duke, I've done what I could to stop that, but your acceptance of a rate of pay thats around 30% less than UPS, 30% less in real terms compared to what you were earning a decade ago while Delta is making billions in profits  is what makes you a bootlicker, Duke is a unionized boot licker and you are a non-union bootlickers but both bootlickers none the less. 

 

[OldGuy@AA]

So proud that you hide behind an alias. Did I say Delta guys or just you in particular? Don't try and drag everyone else into your argument. Not surprising you would like Duke, he is anti union as well. As far as us signing deals below Delta you can even ask your anti-union buddy Duke, I've done what I could to stop that, but your acceptance of a rate of pay thats around 30% less than UPS, 30% less in real terms compared to what you were earning a decade ago while Delta is making billions in profits  is what makes you a bootlicker, Duke is a unionized boot licker and you are a non-union bootlickers but both bootlickers none the less. 

Bob those of us who have been paying attention realize you are always sticking up for your membership.  You should not have to explain this to anyone who is non union.  As bad as the TWU has treated us, in my opinion, it would have been worse had there not been people like you fighting them every step of the way.  I, and many others, appreciate you.

 

[bigjets]

This is what scares me about Bobs rhetoric,

Bob sits across from the company

Company says here is our offer, 3% higher pay then delta plus all the other contract items given up in 2003. That would be a huge raise for us.

Bob says, we want $51 an hour, profit sharing, half the cost for insurance, plus a 5% raise every year on this 2 year contract, plus everything we gave up in 2003 with retro pay to 2003 to make us whole. (which would be great) and we will not move from this position.

Company says, we will meet again in 3 months.

And this goes on for 4 years until the next economic downturn.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

This is what scares me about Bobs rhetoric,
Bob sits across from the company
Company says here is our offer, 3% higher pay then delta plus all the other contract items given up in 2003. That would be a huge raise for us.
Bob says, we want $51 an hour, profit sharing, half the cost for insurance, plus a 5% raise every year on this 2 year contract, plus everything we gave up in 2003 with retro pay to 2003 to make us whole. (which would be great) and we will not move from this position.
Company says, we will meet again in 3 months.
And this goes on for 4 years until the next economic downturn.

No worries. I'm sure you'd get 'em next time.

 

[topDawg]

So proud that you hide behind an alias. Did I say Delta guys or just you in particular? Don't try and drag everyone else into your argument. Not surprising you would like Duke, he is anti union as well. As far as us signing deals below Delta you can even ask your anti-union buddy Duke, I've done what I could to stop that, but your acceptance of a rate of pay thats around 30% less than UPS, 30% less in real terms compared to what you were earning a decade ago while Delta is making billions in profits  is what makes you a bootlicker, Duke is a unionized boot licker and you are a non-union bootlickers but both bootlickers none the less. 

Alright bob. Whatever you say. I'm a bootlicker.....if making what 15 an hour more than you makes me one then I am one proud and happy bootlicker. 
 
congrats on the moral victory. Let me know when you and the TWU stop dragging the craft down alright? 
 
 
oh and yes, I can accept making less than UPS. If I don't then they ship the Pratt 4000s off to a another shop and the engine line shuts down and 100s if not 1000s get laid off. Stuff like that means nothing to you for whatever reason. 
 
But I understand that for Delta to give its mechanics a 20 an hour raise it would cost the company and almost an extra half a billion bucks a year. Just for the mechanics. 
 
You don't think the ramp, FAs, pilots etc are going to ask for the same thing? So thats over 3 billion+ a year for Delta (even more for AA) 
 
remember those profits you were talking about? you just killed that. Again, I understand the simple economic realities we live in now. Fuel simply cost to much, and profits aren't high enough for pre-911 pay. It sucks. I would love to see it change.....but its not something that can really happen. 

 

[Rogallo]

GO TECH!

 

[bigjets]

Alright bob. Whatever you say. I'm a bootlicker.....if making what 15 an hour more than you makes me one then I am one proud and happy bootlicker. 
 
congrats on the moral victory. Let me know when you and the TWU stop dragging the craft down alright? 
 
 
oh and yes, I can accept making less than UPS. If I don't then they ship the Pratt 4000s off to a another shop and the engine line shuts down and 100s if not 1000s get laid off. Stuff like that means nothing to you for whatever reason. 
 
But I understand that for Delta to give its mechanics a 20 an hour raise it would cost the company and almost an extra half a billion bucks a year. Just for the mechanics. 
 
You don't think the ramp, FAs, pilots etc are going to ask for the same thing? So thats over 3 billion+ a year for Delta (even more for AA) 
 
remember those profits you were talking about? you just killed that. Again, I understand the simple economic realities we live in now. Fuel simply cost to much, and profits aren't high enough for pre-911 pay. It sucks. I would love to see it change.....but its not something that can really happen. 

 
To me Bob is a politician, saying all sorts of things people want to hear or believe, and attacking anyone who questions his rhetoric. 
 
Bob is unwilling to make an unpopular statement like, "I don't think we are going to get to $51 an hour like UPS, but I do think we should except $41 an hour which puts us above Delta" Bob has to keep his "political base" happy. 

 

[OldGuy@AA]

This is what scares me about Bobs rhetoric,

Bob sits across from the company

Company says here is our offer, 3% higher pay then delta plus all the other contract items given up in 2003. That would be a huge raise for us.

Bob says, we want $51 an hour, profit sharing, half the cost for insurance, plus a 5% raise every year on this 2 year contract, plus everything we gave up in 2003 with retro pay to 2003 to make us whole. (which would be great) and we will not move from this position.

Company says, we will meet again in 3 months.

And this goes on for 4 years until the next economic downturn.

The day Parker offers AMTs 3% higher pay than Delta AMTs there will be a snow ball fight in hell.  That would be several dollars an hour raise for all AMTs.  He's not going to do that.

 

[bigjets]

The day Parker offers AMTs 3% higher pay than Delta AMTs there will be a snow ball fight in hell.  That would be several dollars an hour raise for all AMTs.  He's not going to do that.

 
you have to get over your OH mentality, AA kept this % of overhaul, which i imagine is close to what delta and ual both have. plus 3% over is not outrageous, it's what AA offered the AA FA's they just didn't vote it in, because there were FA's who wanted more or who thought AA was bluffing about going to arbitration.
 
AA offered to the FA's
 
more vacation time
more bankable sick time hours 1000 to 1500
a higher pay rate to Delta's FA's
better work rules then Delta
9.9% contribution to 401k
 
There are 24000 FA's, for 10000 mechanics to get 3% better then Delta is not outrageous 
we got a huge raise in 2001 which was a little better then NWA before the airline industry changed.
 
Now is the time to get a good deal, i'm sure AA wants to know what it's labor costs will be for the next 5 years, fuel is low, profits are high, AA wants a JCBA in place. The APFA just gave AA an extra $82M to play with.
 
Bob's heart is in the right place, but his thought process is too embittered with the past. Getting 3% above Delta is doable, 3% above UPS is greedy and all it will do is drag us down. 

 

[CactUS4Ever]

Pay me $50hr, cut my medical expense down 50% and keep everything else the same. 2 year contract and I'm happy.