IAM topic of the week

[Jester]

John John,
"You forgot to add" I was commenting on "4/8 jobs" meaning "4 Flights in 8 Hours". Southwest fleet service does typical "7/8 jobs" and with 25-30 minute turns. Probably would have a difficult time finding people for $12/hour at that pace. Get that kind of productivity, then fleet service is more likely to get Southwest pay. Some on this board complain about having to load a B737 in the forward bin alone!

Mike,
You are right, I "still do live at home"... I bought my house over a decade ago, but otherwise thoughtful comments on your behalf. However, you claim that you cannot be contracted only if "because you don't have language to protect you in ur contract." What was the IAM protections unlike the West's TWU protections? I don't think the IAM has much in the way of protections after the 2009 amendable date. Also you claim that because Parker might be trying to sell the company to another, he would be forced to play nice... Hell, I have sold businesses before and my first priority was to "pretty-up" the income statement by cutting costs. Much has changed in your 33 years in this business, not to mention, the government's attitudes about organized labor and companies' willingness to "work around" CBA's whenever possible.

Roadtrip,
"In literature, the jester is symbolic of common sense and of honesty, notably King Lear, the court jester is a character used for insight and advice on the part of the monarch, taking advantage of his license to mock and speak freely to dispense frank observations and highlight the folly of his monarch. This presents a clashing irony as a 'greater' man could dispense the same advice and find himself being detained in the dungeons or even executed. Only as the lowliest member of the court can the jester be the monarch's most useful adviser."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester#Shakespearian_jesters

Perserverance,
Without a doubt, whenever one sub-contracts out a part of an operation, typically quality and reliability will suffer. I know, because I have managed such operations. However, at some point, the savings will be greater than the resulting loss of using a contractor. If that wasn't the case, then all those areas you mentioned, the company would bring them back in-house. It hasn't happened. And I don't see Midwest Airlines or Alaska Airlines (SEA) trying to go back in-house on their ramp either.

Roabilly,
That "golden opportunity" as it pertains to labor contracts during bankruptcy have limits which became law after Frank Lorenzo (and his assistant, Phil Bakes) grossly abused the bankruptcy protection to void CBAs and re-hire all contract employees back at 40-60%% less pay. Bankruptcy courts typically give employees greater protections than creditors in large part because courts view favorably those who kept operations viable during re-organization instead of bailing out of a struggling company. It is difficult for a CEO to plead for bankruptcy mercy while REALLY screwing over employees in the process. The real "golden opportunity" is not while in bankruptcy protection, but after prolonged negotiations post-amendable date, and then lock-out all fleet service while hiring vendors or replace them when the strike begins. Thus, it is best to avoid that scenario by always having time on a contract.

pjirish,
Sounds like being pro-active isn't your strong suit, so you can worry about being replaced when the pink slip has your name on it.

Tim,
I appreciate your honesty, but I would offer a correction. Delta uses in-house "Delta Global Services" at a large number of outstations which means those fleet service people aren't really Delta employees. It is a rather clever trick to have a wholly owned vendor and should those rampers become uppity (vote in an union), then terminate the contract with its own vendor (not the employees directly) and hire a new vendor as DGS becomes too expensive. Continental has contracted out a good number of its outstations in the past decade and continues to pay decent wages to keep various attempts by unions out. Seems like about every year, there is another failed attempt to have Continental FS gain representation.

So Promulgates Jester.

 

[700UW]

Jester,

I was in the bankruptcy court during the hearings.

The Judge does not care about the employees, his only responsibility is to the creditors and to ensure the company's POR is succesful.

Employees are not his concern at all, witness the CBA abrogations during the last chapter 11.

 

[john john]

John John,
"You forgot to add" I was commenting on "4/8 jobs" meaning "4 Flights in 8 Hours". Southwest fleet service does typical "7/8 jobs" and with 25-30 minute turns. So Promulgates Jester.

And whose fault is that? Run a good company pay you employees good. In return you get dedicated trustworthy long-term employees with pride, NOT A BUNCH OF SELLOUTS.This is not a hard concept. America was built on this pride something that is fading away. Kid you need to sit down with your elders and do some soul searching
disseminates
john john

 

[Jester]

Jester,

I was in the bankruptcy court during the hearings.

The Judge does not care about the employees, his only responsibility is to the creditors and to ensure the company's POR is succesful.

Employees are not his concern at all, witness the CBA abrogations during the last chapter 11.

And you would be wrong... if that was the case, then the various BK courts through the several airline bankruptcies wouldn't have told management to go back to the negotiation table and hammer out something both side could accept. There was a requirment of "good faith" to be demonstrated by management. I am not going to tell you that there weren't some large cuts in pay, but frankly, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that if Management could have voided the CBAs and slash pay in half, they would have done so in a heart beat, thus employees were given a much higher priority than most creditors.

Furthermore, I have seen companies attempt to stiff employees in bankruptcy who had medical related claims or employees who were required as a condition of employment to purchase company stock (America West circa 1990) even to the point of requiring a company loan to do so, only to have the judge give priority over other creditors to those employees in terms of their petitions. Frankly, employees can be "creditors" too and certainly, their labor contracts are a company liability to be addressed in bankruptcy.

You might not have thought that US Airways employees did okay, but consider that after the first bankruptcy, most creditors recieved pennies on the dollar.

So Reminds Jester.

 

[Jester]

And whose fault is that? Run a good company pay you employees good. In return you get dedicated trustworthy long-term employees with pride, NOT A BUNCH OF SELLOUTS.This is not a hard concept. America was built on this pride something that is fading away. Kid you need to sit down with your elders and do some soul searching
disseminates
john john

Right John John,

Are you ready to support Management in terminating those employees who cannot keep-up with that hectic pace? So think that if you pay people more, who cannot do that job, they will suddenly develop strong backs, arms and legs, and bulk up 50 pounds of muscle? Ain't happening, and you know it! You would have just more of the same, but at a more expensive price.

So Economizes Jester.

 

[diogenes]

Well let me tell you what I know from being at CCY for M&R Negotiations during the last bankrupcty.

Your PHL members of the NC screwed the Class II stations and the cities that closed.

The company wanted to outsource PHL Catering and give them all jobs on the ramp, since PHL said no way, the company had to seek the cost savings from somewhere and the Class II and small cities were the sacrificial lambs.

They did outsource what they wanted so my personal opinion is they want to do the same to the cities currently staffed by the West that are similar to the cities that were closed on the Eastside of the operation.

I know in the current M&R talks they want to outsource more of heavy maintenance and the IAM is totally against that situation so I doubt you will see an agreement between US and the IAM for M&R.

Was not the NC under Canale's control and direction? You and I have been around the IAM long enough to know there is absolutely no way the NC's product did not have Canale's (and for that matter, Roach's) blessing.

The fact all employees lost out in 2005/2006 is due in large part to the company. The major steps backwards FS language took, vis a vis every other represented group on the property, is the IAM and Canale's responsibility. If he says otherwise, he's just admitted he has no control over the areas GC's are supposed to control.

 

[700UW]

The judge abrogated our CBAs, he did not order the company and the union to sit back down and negotiate more.

The company informed him of the final offers they were fgoing to present.

By Bankrupcty law the Judge is only fiduciary responsibility is to the creditors.

Ask Sharon Levine or any other bankruptcy lawyer.

Dio,

Yep Canale was there and he is from PHL and appointed the PHL members.

And my gut feeling there was more to this with Roach calling the shots, I cant post what I really think on here.

 

[diogenes]

Well we all know canoli math by now. Those 19 stations in the last T/A that could have been outsourced would have been outsourced. Sure they were protected for 5 years, but at the ammendable date, bye bye. If it says in the CBA that the company can do it, they will. Regardless on what canoli says. Heck he agree's with the company on this. Hence the reason for his current situation that he finds himself in now. All of us at US/HP do not trust him, UA can't trust him. BYE BYE canoli, don't let the screen door hit ya, where the good lord split ya, on your way out that is!

You are absolutely correct. Here's a passage from the 1999 FS agreement:

"In other Class I stations where catering functions are currently being performed by Fleet Service employees, the Company may not contract out such catering work as described in the Classification Article paragraph A.3 until March 1, 2004 or later."

In the very first contract, IAM planted the seeds leading to outsourcing. As a matter of fact, if you read all of Article 3, there is a litany of work IAM agreed could be outsourced.

Charming.

 

[diogenes]

Jeser,
Re WN - they are more efficient because they do not rely on a hub and spoke network. While a hub is the most efficient way to dominate a geographical region, it is an inefficient way to move passengers from point A to point B.

WN had the insight to forego the geographical dominance model, and move passengers from one major metropolitan area to another.

As a practical test, go to an out station like RDU where US and WN operate. When you compare apples-to-apples (for instance, three ramp agents per B737-300, comparable cargo loads, etc.), US agents are the equal to WN's. WN employees are not supermen, they merely work for a management team with superior business skills.

For a number of inherent structural reasons (less congestion, fewer ATC issues, no connection issues), out-stations turn flights around quicker than hubs. WN is outstation driven, whereas US is hub driven.

 

[mike33]

Mike,
You are right, I "still do live at home"... I bought my house over a decade ago, but otherwise thoughtful comments on your behalf. However, you claim that you cannot be contracted only if "because you don't have language to protect you in ur contract." What was the IAM protections unlike the West's TWU protections? I don't think the IAM has much in the way of protections after the 2009 amendable date. Also you claim that because Parker might be trying to sell the company to another, he would be forced to play nice... Hell, I have sold businesses before and my first priority was to "pretty-up" the income statement by cutting costs. Much has changed in your 33 years in this business, not to mention, the government's attitudes about organized labor and companies' willingness to "work around" CBA's whenever possible.

Jan 31 2008 03:05 PM
( From ur post dated above...Jester )
" For once I find myself agreeing with Tim on a limited basis in terms of how Wall Street views the importance of a FS contract.

As I understand Bloch's ruling, it did not void the CIC language within the current CBA, but only as it was being used improperly through the multi-buyer context of a company in bankruptcy. So if there was a true "take over" by another company or leadership, the snapback clause would become the poison pill for which Parker said himself would have made the original US Airways deal financially impractical. This snapback would apply to more than FS too, so the total expense to a prospective buyer during a take over would sour the deal.

The CIC language would be a high priority to eliminate from any future TA for management, and it could be used as leverage and explain why management has returned to the table. That might mean there could be job protections built into a trade along with higher pay in exchange for the removal of CIC langauge.

When Parker made the deal for US Airways, he viewed the contracts with the various labor groups to be an asset as the pay scales were below industry averages, but after 3 years and only 2 years remaining that value has slowly eroded away. Now he also has the pressure to consolidate, but is facing the CIC issue once again and to be sure any potential suitor will view that snapback clause as a major liability."

So Speculates Jester.

Jester
I appologize for the insinuation of living with ur parents. It was an example of what one has to do at the present wage scale....
Unless I misunderstood your quote above, my opinion is just that. "My opinion", as is yours and all of ours, but the fact remains the new Language that we will be possibly voting on is very very important as it will stick even after 2009 unless we give it back during next amendable contract negotiations. Parker?.....play nice?.....It's not about playing nice. People in his type of position, " want not " " need nothing ". I believe it's about being " Top Dog ", " Big Cheese ", " Numero Uno " for him. Some might disgree but I think that If you look at the value of DL ( almost 1/2 ) at the present compared to what DP offered, even though he didn't fulfill the acquisition, he still came out on top according to some.

I don't live by the saying " Shouldah, Wouldah, Couldah "

Mike33
Sonofsamsonite

 

[700UW]

Dio,

I believe there was a settlement on that catering language as it was not vendored out.

I just read your current CBA and that language was not found.

 

[diogenes]

Concur.

My point to pj was, D141 (under Canale's direction) inserted major outsourcing language in
FS's very first contract.

Add that to throwing 22 stations under the bus in 2005, and it is reasonable to guess D141 would do so again.

Which is why it is time for Canale to go.

You know I am a solid union guy. You can be that and be an anti-Canale guy.

To me, the choice for fleet is clear:

1. Continue dying the death of a thousand cuts. At best fleet will maintain a handful of stunted jobs in a handful of locations.

2. Take a chance on change. You may all lose your jobs, but you may prevail.

It could be just me, but that's an easy choice.

 

[pjirish317]

pjirish,
Sounds like being pro-active isn't your strong suit, so you can worry about being replaced when the pink slip has your name on it.

Jester,

What exactly would you have me do to be more "proactive"? Proactive in the union, or within the confines of my job? Please elaborate on that statement please. I am not worried about being replaced, if it happens, then so be it. From all of your posts about being replaced, you sound like the one worried. After all, aren't you the one who stated that any ape can do this job? Or something to that effect. Maybee you are the one who needs to be more proactive.


So Refutes pjirish317

 

[Tim Nelson]

Jester,

What exactly would you have me do to be more "proactive"? Proactive in the union, or within the confines of my job? Please elaborate on that statement please. I am not worried about being replaced, if it happens, then so be it. From all of your posts about being replaced, you sound like the one worried. After all, aren't you the one who stated that any ape can do this job? Or something to that effect. Maybee you are the one who needs to be more proactive.


So Refutes pjirish317

PJ,
The problem with Jester's post is not only the low value he places on rampers [especially these senior rampers who he refers to as having bad backs] but also his failure to recognize the industry standards.

His mentioning of the ammendable date and that two years isn't that far off indicate that he doesn't understand the RLA. I find this interesting because some of the USwest workers were apparently told that once the USeast contract is ammendable that they would all lose their jobs anyways. Amazingly, the USwest contract is already up so we were able to inform some members out there of the truth that you can't be contracted out unless you give up more scope.

Further, while bringing up Delta in his argument, I brought out the truth about the Delta ramp and that Delta has 7,000 rampers and has more of its stations being worked by its own rampers than our class 1 stations. But he intentionally didn't recognize this since it doesn't flow too well with his contracting out theory. Instead he started talking about Delta global services again.

At any rate, Jester is not alone in his position. His position is well documented and is the same type of thinking that management has. It's the same position that rampers have been fighting against for quite a while. The difference this time is that the masses are standing solid and making a better fight and aren't agreeing to allow more contracting out language. Simply put, hemenway will not be able to achieve a TA if it doesn't have at least $20hr and other significants. I dont' think anyone should get too excited about negotiations this week as I think it will take time for Hemenway to understand. In the meantime, Boss Canale needs to start section 6 for the west as it is getting hugely ridiculus.

Again, Jester's opinion isn't marginal, you see it all the time from your managers and some among our masses. But jesters opinion isn't finally convincing when solidarity is strong. What will determine an equitable outcome of the TA will be the solidarity of those rampers who know they deserve alot more than what USAIRWAYS has offered.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[Planemx]

Pardon my interruption to the groupthink lovefest, but notice how no one will discuss my aforementioned subject to the ugly reality of demanding so much to the point of being replaced?

Face it.... there are tens of thousands of low-skilled, low-educated people who would do our 4/8 jobs for about $12/hour, plus benefits. If your neighbor's kid demanded twice the going rate to mow your lawn, would you simply say, "I support the working boy, and will pay whatever the kid demands!" Of course, you wouldn't, and neither will Parker.

Reminder... it happened with Midwest Airlines, it happened at Alaska Airlines, Delta already uses in-house vendors for their ramp in most locations, and Northwest had the ability to find licensed and trained aircraft mechanics as permanent replacements for those on strike. Maybe Boss Canale is reading something you all can't bear yourselves to accept and you instead look for some United/Parker/Canale conspiracies to explain an ugly truth. Voting for March Hare and his enabling band of Mad Hatters on the Nihilist Directions Team will not change the facts of our industry, our changing economy, our lowly job requirements, or our company's ability to find replacements.

Will anyone address the possibility of being replaced by a vendor? Tim? O-man? Roadie? PJ? Dio? Redeye? Mike? Perserverance? Roabilly? Anyone? Better start thinking about it, because two years isn't that far off.

You all might loathe me, but consider me to be your long past due cognitive therapy session.

So Counsels Jester.

You have a point....NWA was training CAS mx guys in Tucson for months KNOWING FULL WELL that AMFA was going to go the distance. As soon as they went on strike - the SCABS came in....NWA spent MILLIONS of dollars to screw the employees, their own employees. AMFA was asking for less $$$ than what was spent on training the SCABS to replace them...

This is the time for all of us to sober up.