🌟 Exclusive Amazon Black Friday Deals 2024 🌟

Don’t miss out on the best deals of the season! Shop now 🎁

IAM Fleet Service topic

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jester
I agree a merger is necessary and have no problem with the idea of a merger. I have no problem giving up the CIC for the right price. The company is the one with the "gun" to their head. They are the hostage. They had a chance to negotiate and instead are holloring "Go ahead, pull the trigger I dare you.

What if your wrong joe , and the COC means nothing to anyone put our union memebers , what if it has no teeth ( like the last time )

Do you realise all that you may once again gamble ? is it worth it ?





Once again here is my factual position on the COC , with excerpts taken from the arbiters decision .



A merger has occurred at US AIRWAYS , it was between AWA and US AIR … we here today are the final product of that merger . The text in italics is from the arbiters decision .

FACTS :

in August of 2002, US Airways filed for bankruptcy. Subsequently, in
negotiations with the International Association of Machinists (IAM) and the
Company’s other unions, the parties reached various “restructuring agreementsâ€
by which the unions granted substantial labor concessions. The parties also negotiated a variety of so-called Change in Control provisions (CIC) that would,
in the appropriate circumstances, reinstate -- “snap-backâ€-- many of the benefits
conceded by the unions through bargaining. The question of whether those
provisions in the IAM agreements have been triggered is at the heart of these
grievances.



NOTE here is an important part of text

The bankruptcy exit and merger with America West Airlines
occurred on September 27, 2005.


We now can conclude that there has in FACT been one merger already , albeit tinged by BK … Below are requirements from the arbitrator that are necessary for our union to win ANY change of control grievance .

if the transaction does not comply in all respects with the contractual
framework, the Association’s claim must fail .


Below is the contractual language agreed on by both the union and company .


The parties agree a “change in controlâ€, as that term is defined in the
Labor Agreement, requires a specific set of elements, including (1) the sale of all
or substantially all the assets or the common stock of the Company (2) in a single
transaction (or in multi-step related transactions) (3) to a single purchaser (or a
group of purchasers acting in concert).


Please pay attention to this , the union and company did not really DISCUSS just what these terms meant .


The parties agree there was no discussion, during bargaining, of the contract language set forth above. Both parties direct the Board to, among other things, a range of statutory and common law interpretations they say serve to provide perspective as to the intended impact of the language in question


The arbiters first reasoning in denying the change of control is in my mind the most damaging to the effectiveness of the change of control .

One begins with the observation that this was a sale of stock, not assets.
The bargained language requires the sale of common stock, which is further
specified4 as “then outstanding common stock†issued and in the hands of
shareholders. In this case, however, all “then outstanding stock†of the US
Airways Group that had existed prior to the Company’s emergence from
bankruptcy was cancelled. What was issued and sold was new common stock.


At first when I read through this a few times I didn’t quite get it , but if you look at the PDF file , you’ll see that the word OUTSTANDING has been bolded by the court to add special meaning . Notice how the court defines the “stock “ as “then outstanding common stock “ . … it could be that the change of control has forever been altered by the loss of the “then outstanding common stock “ which it might have been permanently LINKED too .the “Stock “ option as written in the Change of control provision could be useless but the change of control could still apply to assets , so for example , strike stock from the change of control provision and here you have .

The parties agree a “change in controlâ€, as that term is defined in the
Labor Agreement, requires a specific set of elements, including (1) the sale of all
or substantially all the assets of the Company (2) in a single
transaction (or in multi-step related transactions) (3) to a single purchaser (or a
group of purchasers acting in concert).



You see brothers and sisters , if our union and the company didn’t bother to discuss the legal terms within the provision ,that means that any future arbitration is going to go off of common law definitions , and seeing as our union has already agreed to the terminology from this first case , those same definitions will be used in any other future cases .

These are the arbiters words , see them here in more detail


the bargained language requires the sale of common stock, which is further
Specified as “then outstanding common stockâ€


Ok let it sink in …..

In this case, however, all “then outstanding stock†of the US
Airways Group that had existed prior to the Company’s emergence from
bankruptcy was cancelled.

What was issued and sold was new common stock. .

At this point your probably scratching your head like I was .. Ok outstanding stock , common stock , big deal right ? RIGHT , otherwise why would the arbiter have even mentioned the “past or present†form of the stock , UNLESS it made a very big deal in triggering the COC… The arbiter was telling us that the change of control dealt with the old stock and not the NEW stock .

So in conclusion , the change of control would in my opinion only be triggered by

the sale of all
or substantially all the assets

That is why I feel the change of control is not nearly as valuable as many believe it to be .
 
Jester Jester Jester,
I'm guessing either the sun has gotten to your brain or you've been drinking out of the same jug as freedom.

my 3rd person talking friend Your post on page 30 has to be your most scrambled. You make completely NO sense. BY the way

if you do a RGG BWI 0600 2300 you would see there isn't much left in bwi to cut. But why do I care I don't work there :bleh:

and I don't do sudoko puzzles. Now as far as me coming to PHX I don't have to wait for downsizing. GO ahead and vote YES.

the long awaited fence goes DOWN. and the mad dash to west begins. As far as cost of living goes. having lived in phl. I think

I can find a nice little hut under a cactus to take up residence.
 
Tim,


Pat, the one fact that you are failing to be reasonable with in regards to the CIC is your failure to recognize that the CIC was a 'must have' for the company this time. That basic fact can logically and reasonable mean that the CIC must be more than your opinion that it was 'worthless'. I think the facts should allow you to give more respect to the CIC.


I said I wasn't an expert but that was how I interpreted the CIC language. Hey, I will freely admit a yes vote scares me to some degree also. I am not nor will I say that I am 100% right. I have seen alot of good arguments for a no vote. However, I am a yes vote for this POS TA.


Respectfully,

P. REZ
 
as a non topped out eastie I have zero problem wagering my 2 bucks a day raise in this POS any 9 yr or less eastie who votes for this is a d*mn fool plain and simple
 
CIC has more value than we realize. This TA will go down I hope and we will be back at the table. The only question is will AL and RC hide behind closed doors.
Randy Canale will be behind Boardroom doors. Remember, the only one not coming back in negotiations will be Randy Canale. We will be coming for him.....soon enough.

BTW, Here is an awesome letter from the next sheriff in town, Rich Delaney. Delaney's response to Canale's violation

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago
 
JoeDirt,



The way I see this thing playing out is 4 different scenarios.

1. We turn this offer down and the Co. and the IAM go back to the table and try to hammer out an agreement acceptable to the membership.

2. We turn this down and the Co. and the IAM decide to offer our current contract to the west for a vote. Then the decision will be fully in the people in the west.

3. We turn this down and things remain status quo and we continue to operate as we are now.

4. The T/A gets voted in and we will never know what else might have happened.

IMO #1 and #4 are the only ones that have any real chance




I hear you man. What's up?


P. REZ
 
as a non topped out eastie I have zero problem wagering my 2 bucks a day raise in this POS any 9 yr or less eastie who votes for this is a d*mn fool plain and simple


Anyone who DOESN'T vote for this is a fool ....

the COC is a no go unless united buys EVERYTHING .... or substianlly everything ...

clt rat , think toward the future , that section six your seeing , it won't be for quite somtime , who KNOWS how long ...

go on , gamble your future again , and lose it ...... again ....


2011 isn't that far , you honest too goodness can't wait ? you can't wait too have a unified fleet service and a company that will be ready and able to sit down at the table ?

BROTHERS , mergers are an opputnity to GAIN , but if we go about this in a thick manner , we won't gain as much .... do you want a whole pie , or just half of one ....

go with me for the whole pie , vote yes and put our work group in a stronger postion for talks in 2011!!!!
 
and I don't do sudoko puzzles. Now as far as me coming to PHX I don't have to wait for downsizing. GO ahead and vote YES.

the long awaited fence goes DOWN. and the mad dash to west begins. As far as cost of living goes. having lived in phl. I think

I can find a nice little hut under a cactus to take up residence.
Oman, with the United merger, I dont think anyone is going to PHX. I think PHX will be done as a hub without question. DEN, LAX, SFO are United babies and when capacity cuts come I would think PHX will be on thin ice. Any United merger IMO would put CLT at risk since IAD has alot of the same runs. A yes vote makes it incredible easy for United to piss all over US AIRWAYS fleet. You will have nothing. Nothing United will need from you. A No vote keeps cards in your pocket.

At absolute worst, I mean absolute worst, a No vote would position you at the table in 2009 with the United brothers and sisters asking for an industry "leading" contract. IMO, we vote this down and both Hemenway and United will have to come to the table and come together and reason with us. Canale will be officially gone and wont' be the 'axis of obstruction' anymore. But if things go haywire then the worst that can happen is that we open up section 6 talks in October 2009 and go for the best wages/benefits in the industry.

OTOH, a yes vote guarantees we will keep the worst scope, worst vacation, worst sick time, worst medical payments, worst of everything until approx 2016. Many class 2's will be eliminated since they are not in stations that fall under United fleet service covered stations. Many west stations will be gone because of this also plus because of closing many west stations due to scope givebacks. That's the best that can happen with a yes vote.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago
 
Anyone who DOESN'T vote for this is a fool ....

the COC is a no go unless united buys EVERYTHING .... or substianlly everything ...

clt rat , think toward the future , that section six your seeing , it won't be for quite somtime , who KNOWS how long ...

go on , gamble your future again , and lose it ...... again ....


2011 isn't that far , you honest too goodness can't wait ? you can't wait too have a unified fleet service and a company that will be ready and able to sit down at the table ?

BROTHERS , mergers are an opputnity to GAIN , but if we go about this in a thick manner , we won't gain as much .... do you want a whole pie , or just half of one ....

go with me for the whole pie , vote yes and put our work group in a stronger postion for talks in 2011!!!!
Freedom, our solidarity is solid. We aren't your enemy. And nobody is a fool no matter how they vote. Don't let the IAM force you into thinking its yes against no. This isn't the end of the world and there are much more important things than the determination of this contract. Take it easy bud.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago
 
My friend Freedom
I have no idea if the CIC has any real teeth in any up coming merger. Unless we know the exact details no one knows for sure. All we can do is speculate. The only thing I know for sure is the company wants it to disappear. The question now becomes how bad do they want it to go away. I would have no problem letting them have it if they had offered what I feel should have been a fair T/A. IMO this T/A came up short of what I feel is fair. I'm placing my bet that they will come back to the table if they want it bad enough.

On another note. The passion demonstrated by many of the posters here tells me one thing. When we do get all of our group on the same page we will be a force to be reckoned with.
 
Oman, with the United merger, I dont think anyone is going to PHX. I think PHX will be done as a hub without question. DEN, LAX, SFO are United babies and when capacity cuts come I would think PHX will be on thin ice. Any United merger IMO would put CLT at risk since IAD has alot of the same runs. A yes vote makes it incredible easy for United to piss all over US AIRWAYS fleet. You will have nothing. Nothing United will need from you. A No vote keeps cards in your pocket.

At absolute worst, I mean absolute worst, a No vote would position you at the table in 2009 with the United brothers and sisters asking for an industry "leading" contract. IMO, we vote this down and both Hemenway and United will have to come to the table and come together and reason with us. Canale will be officially gone and wont' be the 'axis of obstruction' anymore. But if things go haywire then the worst that can happen is that we open up section 6 talks in October 2009 and go for the best wages/benefits in the industry.

OTOH, a yes vote guarantees we will keep the worst scope, worst vacation, worst sick time, worst medical payments, worst of everything until approx 2016. Many class 2's will be eliminated since they are not in stations that fall under United fleet service covered stations. Many west stations will be gone because of this also plus because of closing many west stations due to scope givebacks. That's the best that can happen with a yes vote.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

ohhh scare tactics coming from the man who can predict the future !!! oh wait no , we lost the COC …

Tim , nothing you can say scares my people on the west here …

I can use the SAME tactics against your own people , and I bet I can scare them worse …

A news paper article in the republic by dawn gilbert talked about the merger , in it she consulted with industry “people “ and they speculated that their could be cuts in PHL and CLT …. Don’t take my word on it ,check the article ….

HELLO sixty day rule!!!! SAY hello to it brothers , and goodbye to your jobs and everything you now know …



Here is the stark reality my brothers , on one side we have men like tim nelson who want to channel everything towards a NO vote , they want to GAMBLE with your lives and your careers ….

We on the other hand do NOT want to gamble , we want to take the safe slow route to gain wages …

In any merger , there WILL be pain , nothing in any TA or contract or agreement is going to stop that fact , notice how I’m not sugar coating it for you … any station , any hub could be downsized ….

Stop buying the B/S being fed to you by the other side ….

If you want my opinion , you no people went about this the wrong way , that COC , I can beat you over the head with it 5 ways to yesterday … you lost it , and so it’s an open sore in your no position …. In fact it’s not only weak but it’s desperate for you in the NO to try and use it to sway the vote …. Realistically speaking you should have focused on the outsourcing of the field stations and tried to use that as a wedge …. but too bad for you , you didn’t! haha you fell into the circular change of control argument that I doubt many of you even buy yourselves .. !!! so sad , too late !

Now in a last desperate attempt before the vote next week your going to bring out “DANGERS OF MERGER “ .. well that position is just about as weak as the COC argument .. and do you know why ? because we’re all IN a merger already , and it’s fact and evident to see how long and shitty this thing goes …

Given all the options , your people will overwhelmingly vote yes on this ….
 
JoeDirt,

On another note. The passion demonstrated by many of the posters here tells me one thing. When we do get all of our group on the same page we will be a force to be reckoned with.



Lets hope so, bro.
 
Ok…

Do I have any mathematically inclined individuals in this forum?

If so… please crunch the numbers for the total number of Fleet Service workers…
(East only)...that would actually be rewarded, an hourly wage increase (Per the Agreement)… in a COC award, assuming, Member rejection of this proposed Tentative Agreement.

Now... Insert the total cost liability for the Company (LCC) for this awarded compensation...

Now… compare this figure, to the proposed United/US Airways combined “synergy†projected annual earnings.

Hmmmm… I think… without even… getting’ out my calculator… that this Fleet Group is in no way… gonna be ahh financial impediment… to any future Airline Merger scenarios… such as the proposed… United Airlines, and US Airways Deal!

Mr. Farce… Git out yer calculator… ‘n again …tell this Fleet Group how…they can actually prevent this United/US Airways Merger from happin’ by votin' NO!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top