IAM Fleet Service Thread 3/7-3/14

[lithuanian]

Again! We'll hash this out over and over. The Mechanics got a TA and the company is GLOATING! Hasn't seemed to help sell the shareholders. And we'll wait to see what East and West mechanics have to add. One of the best West mechanics (AWAContract) in Phoenix hasn't even posted as of late So, let's wait for the "seasoned fellas to reply.
"
Again. Any hope, Tim, with your attorney for fleet and Section Six. This thing is well past the Spin Meisters.

 

[Henderfuzz]

Again! We'll hash this out over and over. The Mechanics got a TA and the company is GLOATING! Hasn't seemed to help sell the shareholders. And we'll wait to see what East and West mechanics have to add. One of the best West mechanics (AWAContract) in Phoenix hasn't even posted as of late So, let's wait for the "seasoned fellas to reply.
"
Again. Any hope, Tim, with your attorney for fleet and Section Six. This thing is well past the Spin Meisters.

I work where we have nothing but west M/R They have all said its a no for them.
However its a gain for most of the east mechs so just the shear numbers its most likely going to pass. Time will tell though.

 

[orioleman]

aluminum enema,
"You had a livable offer and blindly voted it down, now you want the AGC's who you are about to boot out to save your arse. Give me a break.

The M&R offer will pass by over 70%, good luck guys.

I hope your pied pipers leads you boys to the end of the rainbow."

thanks for your thoughts . I guess your group will succumb to the companys re guest but F/S is willing to wait for 09.

so go ahead and give up your COC and let UA or whoever else outsource your jobs for your 10% .. there will be a new sheriff

in town in OCT and we'll deal with Hemminway in our on way.. And by they way thanks for the solidarity. That's what the IAM

pride itself on. NOW the F/S on the west can see where the true B/S of the IAM is in there "were 1 union guys lets stick it to the company B/S"

 

[orioleman]

fuzz,
"Just so you get the correct facts here, the east class 1 cities make about 2.00 per hour more than the west guys as well as the east class 2.
I will again say that some of those small field stations may have to be gone in order to get a deal.
You say it yourself with this current economy the company cannot afford to keep fleet in stations with 6 or less flights per day on the fleet payroll. There will need to be give and take on this."

I here yea fuzz. SO tell you what . In our next proposal I'll suggest to the neg. to go ahead and shut DFW down..

we really don't need to compete with WN head to head with the dallas market. so IF DFW is thrown under the bus.. IT's a big YES from

me........

 

[orioleman]

fuzz,
"I just dont think thats what we want we need some real wage increases now and try and gain a few contract changes than in a few years we can come back and hammer out a good contract for all."

fuzz what do you want to wait for Hemminway to retire or jump out with his golden parachute. YOU see how the company plays

what makes you think that going back in 5 yrs YOUR going to get something better..

something to think about. The company wants to cry about the economy and it's effects .. Do you think that 1.00 raise is going to

be worth more than a pile of s*it in another 12 to 18 months. times are getting tough so FIGHT (I know thats hard for you) for what YOU

deserve.....

 

[Henderfuzz]

fuzz,
"Just so you get the correct facts here, the east class 1 cities make about 2.00 per hour more than the west guys as well as the east class 2.
I will again say that some of those small field stations may have to be gone in order to get a deal.
You say it yourself with this current economy the company cannot afford to keep fleet in stations with 6 or less flights per day on the fleet payroll. There will need to be give and take on this."

I here yea fuzz. SO tell you what . In our next proposal I'll suggest to the neg. to go ahead and shut DFW down..

we really don't need to compete with WN head to head with the dallas market. so IF DFW is thrown under the bus.. IT's a big YES from

me........

Once again take a look at most of the major airlines and see who works there fights in there small cities. Its not there own people becasue they understand its not smart bussiness.
As far as DFW is concerned so what if thats what it would take to get real wages back to our group than so be it. And where do you see it being 5 years before we get a new deal.
What I have seen is 2011 being the extension thats only 3.
Once again all we are tring to do is merge our work groups why do we need to get everything all at once. Just the important stuff such as wages and sick time and the 60 day rule should be whats important here.

 

[lithuanian]

What do the pilots see at AWA that Fleet NC doesn't!




US Airways Management and America West Pilots to Open Separate Negotiations
Friday, March 14, 2008; Posted: 08:00 AM

*US Airways Says Management And America West Pilots To Open Separate Negotiations
US Airways Management And America West Pilots To Open Separate Negotiations -


PHOENIX, March 14, 2008 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- LCC | news | PowerRating | PR Charts -- US Airways (NYSE: LCC)

(Management received notification today from the America West pilots requesting to commence separate contract negotiations under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act)

 

[Henderfuzz]

fuzz,
"Just so you get the correct facts here, the east class 1 cities make about 2.00 per hour more than the west guys as well as the east class 2.
I will again say that some of those small field stations may have to be gone in order to get a deal.
You say it yourself with this current economy the company cannot afford to keep fleet in stations with 6 or less flights per day on the fleet payroll. There will need to be give and take on this."

I here yea fuzz. SO tell you what . In our next proposal I'll suggest to the neg. to go ahead and shut DFW down..

we really don't need to compete with WN head to head with the dallas market. so IF DFW is thrown under the bus.. IT's a big YES from

me........

I have never said those small cities be closed just that that we may have to allow them to be farmed out. However if your willing to fight for them and keep them than we will never get the wage increase that many would like it just wont happen.
As I have said before I came into this industry understanding I would have to move from time to time its part of this job. Noone wants it to be forced onto them but its life.
I think we can still gain good things in our contract but everyone must be willing to make a few sacrfices in order to obtain what we want.
As always the guys who are in those stations will have the chance to move to other cities.
Look at the guys in Pitt. They didnt even farm out but yet the company chose to scale back service and they had a choice to make move or furlough.
This industry is always going to be this way, we all have choices to make.
This economy is what it is and we cant control it nor can the company so its up to us to make the smart decisions here. You have been around as long as me and you have seen it too, all Im saying is lets all be smart here.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Once again take a look at most of the major airlines and see who works there fights in there small cities. Its not there own people becasue they understand its not smart bussiness.
As far as DFW is concerned so what if thats what it would take to get real wages back to our group than so be it. And where do you see it being 5 years before we get a new deal.
What I have seen is 2011 being the extension thats only 3.
Once again all we are tring to do is merge our work groups why do we need to get everything all at once. Just the important stuff such as wages and sick time and the 60 day rule should be whats important here.

Fuzz, just because other airlines have followed Canale's stupid lead and eliminated all small stations doesn't mean we have to. Remember, Canale's UA contract started all this by eliminating many stations, then he did the same thing at US EAST which forced Delta to follow and also Northwest.
You have mentioned Southwest alot, what do they do? I know non-union Continental works many of their stations because their management realizes the true additional cost of having sub contractors in alot of stations. I personally think it is a manufacturization that gives the illusion that having sub contractors is beneficial. I know in ORD, Continental is the subcontactor for the freight and mail and they are much more costly than having company workers. But when you're dealing with a management team that thinks its own employees are the enemy [just looking up at the scoreboard] then it makes sense.
Having our own workers in El Paso, MCI, SAN, DEN, etc is incredibly valuable and not an expense OR BURDEN when measured on the whole. It's called professionalism. The problem comes in with the laptop boys who do some objective numbers without putting in other cost variables due to the human predicament. Is Hemenway willing to cost out 'professionalism' or other abstract things that cant be measured concretely enough for him to get another feather in his cap? The problem isn't the workers in the small cities, the problem is that we have had a management team that doesn't care about this airline, or its service, and only worried about getting their next bonus/employment contract/ or adding to their resume. I mean if this airline started caring about optimizing profit by offering professional service then you would have more business travelers instead of internet people like me going online confirming the cheapest fare.

At any rate, nobody is asking for anything unreasonable that will have to shut down the 19 west stations. What we are asking for is very modest. I tell you what, if you want to compare other airlines then compare in 'totality'. Those other airlines are paying workers much more, up to 7 weeks of vacation, double time, yaddy yaddy yaddy.
If Hemenway wants to contract out 19 stations because that's what other airlines do then give the industry standards on vacation [6-7 weeks vacation], holidays [10-12], double time, shift differ, a real company contribution to our pension, $20-$24 hr, full sick pay, etc., etc., then he wont have a problem getting what he's asking for.

In the context of the current talks, there is no convincing reason to eliminate up to 1,200 jobs. I personally would call that profane since it violates basic union principles of 'one for all and all for one'. It's just profane to give up these people so those who survive can divy up their spoils with a better wage. Unfortunately, Boss Canale has been the biggest advocate of this techique.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[Tim Nelson]

What do the pilots see at AWA that Fleet NC doesn't!




US Airways Management and America West Pilots to Open Separate Negotiations
Friday, March 14, 2008; Posted: 08:00 AM

*US Airways Says Management And America West Pilots To Open Separate Negotiations
US Airways Management And America West Pilots To Open Separate Negotiations -


PHOENIX, March 14, 2008 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- LCC | news | PowerRating | PR Charts -- US Airways (NYSE: LCC)

(Management received notification today from the America West pilots requesting to commence separate contract negotiations under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act)

Lith, the problem is that Randy Canale has recessed section 6 and screwed you guys over out there. Bottom line. Also, PHX RR has been Boss Canale's biggest supporter in this. When I tell you that him and JM out of LAS are not the biggest supporters of you guys when in negotiations, consider it. If RR and JM stuck with MR in considering section 6 then you guys would have already had section 6 rolling again. It makes it difficult for east negotiators to advocate for the west when the west negotiators aren't doing it. I can tell you one thing, LAS needs to get JM out asap when they have a chance.
Not sure if Ron is just ignorant on these violations or is just stroking Canale for his VP job. Either way, very poor taste on his part.

As for the America West pilots trying to re-enter section 6. There is a problem with that for them. The problem comes in for them because they are in the middle of an election to switch unions, thus, any change that management makes will be suspect if it doesn't keep the status quo.
Looks like an end run could be happening between West pilots and Management so it will be interesting to see if the ref spots the clip. OTOH, it may mean that the west pilots realize defeat and have reopened section 6 to force USAPA to negotiate in section 6 once it wins. If this is the case then I find their action interesting.

At any rate, even though R Johnson, and others within the IAM continue to refuse section 6 to protect the west, I'm glad that ALPA agrees with me that section 6 is the way to go. I think the IAM will come to this realization also but it has wasted 2 years in tryin to do the math on this and they continue to waste time as each day goes by trying to figure things out. If this was a math test with only 50 minutes to complete, the IAM would have flunked since they are still stuck on the first couple problems.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[Henderfuzz]

Fuzz, just because other airlines have followed Canale's stupid lead and eliminated all small stations doesn't mean we have to. Remember, Canale's UA contract started all this by eliminating many stations, then he did the same thing at US EAST which forced Delta to follow and also Northwest.
You have mentioned Southwest alot, what do they do? I know non-union Continental works many of their stations because their management realizes the true additional cost of having sub contractors in alot of stations. I personally think it is a manufacturization that gives the illusion that having sub contractors is beneficial. I know in ORD, Continental is the subcontactor for the freight and mail and they are much more costly than having company workers. But when you're dealing with a management team that thinks its own employees are the enemy [just looking up at the scoreboard] then it makes sense.
Having our own workers in El Paso, MCI, SAN, DEN, etc is incredibly valuable and not an expense OR BURDEN when measured on the whole. It's called professionalism. The problem comes in with the laptop boys who do some objective numbers without putting in other cost variables due to the human predicament. Is Hemenway willing to cost out 'professionalism' or other abstract things that cant be measured concretely enough for him to get another feather in his cap? The problem isn't the workers in the small cities, the problem is that we have had a management team that doesn't care about this airline, or its service, and only worried about getting their next bonus/employment contract/ or adding to their resume. I mean if this airline started caring about optimizing profit by offering professional service then you would have more business travelers instead of internet people like me going online confirming the cheapest fare.

At any rate, nobody is asking for anything unreasonable that will have to shut down the 19 west stations. What we are asking for is very modest. I tell you what, if you want to compare other airlines then compare in 'totality'. Those other airlines are paying workers much more, up to 7 weeks of vacation, double time, yaddy yaddy yaddy.
If Hemenway wants to contract out 19 stations because that's what other airlines do then give the industry standards on vacation [6-7 weeks vacation], holidays [10-12], double time, shift differ, a real company contribution to our pension, $20-$24 hr, full sick pay, etc., etc., then he wont have a problem getting what he's asking for.

In the context of the current talks, there is no convincing reason to eliminate up to 1,200 jobs. I personally would call that profane since it violates basic union principles of 'one for all and all for one'. It's just profane to give up these people so those who survive can divy up their spoils with a better wage. Unfortunately, Boss Canale has been the biggest advocate of this techique.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

I can agree to some of what you say about the professionanilsm of our group and I do think we are.
I also remember way back when in the 80s when Eastern was still around and how they kept insisting on certain issiues and look what that got them. Now Im not saying we are in that situation yet but we are close.
Look I want everyone who can possible have a job and stay where they are to do just that.
I just think your numbers of how many is not that accurate. I believe you said it was 1000 the last time now its 1200. Which is it? I actually think its closer to 600 to 800.
I also dont feel that stations such as DEN or SAN and even MCI should be the ones that should be looked at, those are money making stations, in fact I never understood why the east ever farmed out DEN. Thats why I say lets make make some compromises and go back to the table and see what happens. We do ourselves no good as long as we stay away.
If it takes our NC 6 days in a row to hammer out something than do it.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I can agree to some of what you say about the professionanilsm of our group and I do think we are.
I also remember way back when in the 80s when Eastern was still around and how they kept insisting on certain issiues and look what that got them. Now Im not saying we are in that situation yet but we are close.
Look I want everyone who can possible have a job and stay where they are to do just that.
I just think your numbers of how many is not that accurate. I believe you said it was 1000 the last time now its 1200. Which is it? I actually think its closer to 600 to 800.
I also dont feel that stations such as DEN or SAN and even MCI should be the ones that should be looked at, those are money making stations, in fact I never understood why the east ever farmed out DEN. Thats why I say lets make make some compromises and go back to the table and see what happens. We do ourselves no good as long as we stay away.
If it takes our NC 6 days in a row to hammer out something than do it.

I think if both the union and company are reasonable then things can happen. As I said earlier, looking at the union proposal it didn't recognize 2 company sacreds. Not saying the union has to agree to the 2 company sacreds in the way the company would like, but those 2 sacreds need to be on the playing field if we're going to play the negotiations game as opposed to waiting till 2009. Likewise, the company's head negotiator didn't do himself, the company, or anyone any good by busting balls with the February proposal. He has got to recognize the inadequacy of the September proposal if he is going to rightly interpret the context of the situation.

Everyone has got to listen to the other in negotiations, just like in any relationship. One thing that shouts out is COC, Profit sharing, extension of contract. Also, $20, protecting more jobs, enhancement of benefits is fleet's sacreds. If it can't be done then it can't be done now. Bottom line and no sense fretting over it. Things will be able to move better for fleet if the Mechanics agree to their cost neutral contract. Right now the company can't adequately address the things fleet expects until the Mechanics get under contract till 2011.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman

 

[orioleman]

Tim,
anyway to do a cost comparison on Out source VS in-house work. Just how much is the company really saving

by going out source. ex delayed flights / lost bags/ dirty airplanes.. The continue swinging door with hiring/ firing new people

if you add the training cost to hire someone for 3months and then have to hire again and train again and pay for new background

check and drug test.. whats the cost savings. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
anyway to do a cost comparison on Out source VS in-house work. Just how much is the company really saving

by going out source. ex delayed flights / lost bags/ dirty airplanes.. The continue swinging door with hiring/ firing new people

if you add the training cost to hire someone for 3months and then have to hire again and train again and pay for new background

check and drug test.. whats the cost savings. Inquiring minds want to know.

Oman, forgive me if I made myself out to be the mathematician in all this. Although the company is most definaely not saving anything with outsourcing. It's a technique the company uses that is not proven but it is safe for the company to do this because it's a practiced management technique in the industry. It's not about the money at all either. The company is contracting out stations right now with contracted help that cost more than the $15 bucks that our closed second class stations would have been making.

Further, although on paper, paying a new hire $9 bucks an hour to start looks better than $10, the final score shows that the $9 buck guy is probably someone with little ownership who doesn't plan on sticking around and will take risk like stealing, being lazy, not caring about misconnecting a bag if his fav tv show is on in the breakroom, showing up late [answer is E, all of the above].

$10hr seems to be the wage that will make someone stick at the bottom and it will actually reduce cost. United starts at $9.93 next month. US AIRWAYS wages are too low to be competitive so it is unlikely that it will be able to reduce the additional context costs of the 9 Buck guy. Opportunity cost is tremendous and I don't think there is any doubt about this. The company knows this too, I think it's just a reflection of having a management team that doesn't care about this airline and considers its own best resources [insert employees here] as the cancer and enemy. That's pretty much the basic and simple nature of all this IMO.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[orioleman]

A noticeable difference in having your out stations outsourced is . Used to be a flight could leave the hub city 15 to 20 late.

which allowed the hub to make all connections and get there bags. that flight would go upline where the station would take that

late inbd and turn it quick to get it back on schd and back to the hub ontime.. Now fast forward to contract work.. Those cats could

care less if the flt is late in or out . IT'S JUST A 9.00 dollar JOB.. No owenership NO pride NO care.. thus now you have blown the

chance to get the airline back on time.. Hmmmmm maybe instead of turning tricks make a permanent fix and put people in those

places that actually care about the company they work for........

I bet O.T and MBRS would drop drasticatly

just a thought