Finally; Non-stops from Dallas to LGA---

[swamt]

WT, no one has argued, as you always seem to indicate, that SWA does not do what other airlines do after a merger.  They have, but it is much less hardship on the employees than at other airlines.  

 

[WorldTraveler]

since WN is smaller than every one of the big 3 and has picked up a whole lot less baggage in its 40 years than the legacies have picked up in twice as long doing business, I would expect that the impact would be smaller.

No other legacy carrier closed 18 mainline cities after their merger so WN changed the paradigm of how mergers have been handled, even compared to the ruthless legacy carriers. Further, no other legacy carrier had maintenance outsourcing as high as WN did - and still does - so there was a lot less to have to deal with in a merger.

So you've got all that outsourced maintenance going for you to protect your job, right?

glad to know you won't be surprised to see DL at DAL after 10/14/2014, even if you will be disappointed.

 

[swamt]

I never said the impact would be smaller.   I said SWA treats it's employees a lot better during the time of downsizing after a merger.  And size of the company and how long they have been around has nothing to do with how a company treats their employees after a merger.  It's all in their blood how they will treat their employees, and past practices.
 
Well, if you would read and comprehend what people post instead of twisting it all around into what YOU think they said, things would go so much smother out here.  You have twisted me saying Delta won't get the 2 gates into, Delta will never fly out of LF after the W/A goes away.
 
The rest of your post is just constant repeats that you keep posting over and over and over again.
Yes I am ok with the % of outsourced maint at SWA.  I have always said that it has always been around the 60-75% range.  It always have been from the get go and will be into the future.   BTW this has nothing to do with topic as you are the king of getting threads off topic and for reasons to distract when you have been proven wrong.
 
Oh don't worry.  I still don't think Delta will be serving LF unless they are able to acquire some other gates somehow.  No WT, not saying Delta won't serve LF.  But they will have to make some changes in order to keep flying out of LF. 

 

[eolesen]

The number of FL stations closed by WN is certainly an interesting sliver to latch onto, but let's look at that little gem in a little more detail.

One of those was a very large airport where WN didn't operate, and had no choice in closing:

DFW (7x ATL, 2x BWI, 2x MCO, employees protected to DAL)

Three were stations closed in favor of WN service from nearby airports:

MIA (1x BWI) --> FLL (25 miles)
PHF (1x LGA 1x MCO 1x BOS) --> ORF (25 miles)
SRQ (1x MDW 2x ATL) --> TPA (50 miles)

13 were markets which clearly don't meet the norm for WN service levels, and for the most part only had RJ service from the legacy airlines:

HPN (3x ATL 1x PBI 1x MCO)
BMI (3x ATL, 4 weekly MCO)
HSV (2x BWI 1x MCO)
BKG (2x ATL, weeklies to MCO, BWI, MDW, HOU)
ABE (2x MCO)
ACY (2x ATL, subsidized)
MDT (2x MCO)
EYW (1x TPA 1x MCO)
LEX (1x MCO)
TYS (1x MCO)
AVL (4 weekly to MCO & TPA)
MLI (4 weekly MCO)
CRW (3 weekly to MCO)

I'd be surprised if FL even had employees in those outstations. HPN was certainly outsourced. Certainly, the ones also served by DL are locations where staffing was outsourced to its regional partners ages ago...

Further, those 17 stations represented fewer than 40 weekday departures. If there's a legacy airline who merged and didn't drop at least 40 departures as part of the process, please let us know.

That leaves JAN... the only legacy WN city to lose service from the merger.

Service levels of 2x to HOU 1x MDW 1x MCO. Even with the ability to fly to/from DAL, they chose not to...

So please, WT, do feel free to keep harping on "18 stations closed as a result of the merger" if you will, but at least now we know the rest of the story. The impact of those 18 cities was minimal at best.

 

[robbedagain]

I can tell you E in ABE  the airport employees handled FL flights    last time I checked too WN had told the airport officials their landing fees were excessively high for a 737 alone to justify WN presence  which is why they went to PHL  

 

[swamt]

E,
I still have the AT mechanics seniority list from pre-merger.  I don't recognize any stations you have listed, but I will get the list and compare, but I'm pretty confident that you are correct, no AT employees were at those stations, therefore, not one single FL mechanic was displaced due to this merger.
 
He keeps going on and on about these 18 stations when I have already told him that SWA will pull flights that are not profitable.  And SWA will revamp any routes that are not cost efficient.  Very same reason SWA is dumping the 717's.  They cost the same as flying the 737's that carry a heck of alt more passengers cheaper, now that is cost efficient.
 
I will get back to you on the list, but nothing is ringing any bells...

 

[does this plane go to paris]

I think we should be nice to WT today, since it's his day when we honor Fools.  Don't bring up facts, it'll get in his mind and he'll end up writing a 20,000 word thesis on how great DL is and it'll just rain on his parade.  Let's play nice and bow down to the widget.

 

[eolesen]

For gits and shiggles, I just compared a station list from 2006 with one from 2012.

Here are former DL/NW stations which no longer exist today:

ACY APF BFL BLI BQN CLL CRP DRO HRL ILG
ILN ISP ITO LCH LRD MAF PSE TTN

Hard to say which were due to the merger, or which simply no longer were viable...

 

[WorldTraveler]

The number of FL stations closed by WN is certainly an interesting sliver to latch onto, but let's look at that little gem in a little more detail.

One of those was a very large airport where WN didn't operate, and had no choice in closing:

DFW (7x ATL, 2x BWI, 2x MCO, employees protected to DAL)

Three were stations closed in favor of WN service from nearby airports:

MIA (1x BWI) --> FLL (25 miles)
PHF (1x LGA 1x MCO 1x BOS) --> ORF (25 miles)
SRQ (1x MDW 2x ATL) --> TPA (50 miles)

13 were markets which clearly don't meet the norm for WN service levels, and for the most part only had RJ service from the legacy airlines:

HPN (3x ATL 1x PBI 1x MCO)
BMI (3x ATL, 4 weekly MCO)
HSV (2x BWI 1x MCO)
BKG (2x ATL, weeklies to MCO, BWI, MDW, HOU)
ABE (2x MCO)
ACY (2x ATL, subsidized)
MDT (2x MCO)
EYW (1x TPA 1x MCO)
LEX (1x MCO)
TYS (1x MCO)
AVL (4 weekly to MCO & TPA)
MLI (4 weekly MCO)
CRW (3 weekly to MCO)

I'd be surprised if FL even had employees in those outstations. HPN was certainly outsourced. Certainly, the ones also served by DL are locations where staffing was outsourced to its regional partners ages ago...

Further, those 17 stations represented fewer than 40 weekday departures. If there's a legacy airline who merged and didn't drop at least 40 departures as part of the process, please let us know.

That leaves JAN... the only legacy WN city to lose service from the merger.

Service levels of 2x to HOU 1x MDW 1x MCO. Even with the ability to fly to/from DAL, they chose not to...

So please, WT, do feel free to keep harping on "18 stations closed as a result of the merger" if you will, but at least now we know the rest of the story. The impact of those 18 cities was minimal at best.

and WN was surprised to find out the size of FL in these cities AFTER they announced the merger? Even while telling everyone that the merger would result in growth.... including in ATL where I said years ago that FL's network wouldn't be conducive to a larger operation, but you and others believed otherwise.

tell us, E, how many of those DL/NW stations were served by mainline aircraft, let alone nearly all a minimum of 100 seats or more per day and many twice or more than amount.

the landing fees at any of the stations were secret information, robbed? the size of subsidies MIGHT have been confidential information but other airlines knew the size of many of FL's subsidies.

I think we should be nice to WT today, since it's his day when we honor Fools. Don't bring up facts, it'll get in his mind and he'll end up writing a 20,000 word thesis on how great DL is and it'll just rain on his parade. Let's play nice and bow down to the widget.

it's precisely because I bring up facts that you and others are knocked off your rocker so often.

I'm not about to let up. but thanks for playing!

 

[Kev3188]

...take a clue from swamt and wait until the whole process is over before you count DL out of DAL... I think you will find them there and larger than what they are now.

Given how small DL's presence is there currently, that's not a large limb to go out on.
 
 

The number of FL stations closed by WN is certainly an interesting sliver to latch onto, but let's look at that little gem in a little more detail.

One of those was a very large airport where WN didn't operate, and had no choice in closing:

DFW (7x ATL, 2x BWI, 2x MCO, employees protected to DAL)

Three were stations closed in favor of WN service from nearby airports:

MIA (1x BWI) --> FLL (25 miles)
PHF (1x LGA 1x MCO 1x BOS) --> ORF (25 miles)
SRQ (1x MDW 2x ATL) --> TPA (50 miles)

13 were markets which clearly don't meet the norm for WN service levels, and for the most part only had RJ service from the legacy airlines:

HPN (3x ATL 1x PBI 1x MCO)
BMI (3x ATL, 4 weekly MCO)
HSV (2x BWI 1x MCO)
BKG (2x ATL, weeklies to MCO, BWI, MDW, HOU)
ABE (2x MCO)
ACY (2x ATL, subsidized)
MDT (2x MCO)
EYW (1x TPA 1x MCO)
LEX (1x MCO)
TYS (1x MCO)
AVL (4 weekly to MCO & TPA)
MLI (4 weekly MCO)
CRW (3 weekly to MCO)

I'd be surprised if FL even had employees in those outstations. HPN was certainly outsourced. Certainly, the ones also served by DL are locations where staffing was outsourced to its regional partners ages ago...

Further, those 17 stations represented fewer than 40 weekday departures. If there's a legacy airline who merged and didn't drop at least 40 departures as part of the process, please let us know.

That leaves JAN... the only legacy WN city to lose service from the merger.

Service levels of 2x to HOU 1x MDW 1x MCO. Even with the ability to fly to/from DAL, they chose not to...

So please, WT, do feel free to keep harping on "18 stations closed as a result of the merger" if you will, but at least now we know the rest of the story. The impact of those 18 cities was minimal at best.

The "whole truth" as it were?
 
 

For gits and shiggles, I just compared a station list from 2006 with one from 2012.

Here are former DL/NW stations which no longer exist today:

ACY APF BFL BLI BQN CLL CRP DRO HRL ILG
ILN ISP ITO LCH LRD MAF PSE TTN

Hard to say which were due to the merger, or which simply no longer were viable...

Don't forget this list:


 TVF
GLH
 DVL 
ATY 
 MSL 
FOD 
 HIB 
APN 
TUP 
JMS
MCW 
PIR 
 IMT 
SUX
INL 
BRD 
 PIB 
 ESC 
ABR 
PLN 
 BJI
CIU
ALO 
BTM

 

[WorldTraveler]

again, how many of those cities were served by mainline or even over 100 seats/day? In many cases they were EAS service served by turboprops.

Guess you missed that regional carrier service is getting harder and harder to justify - but DL figured it out several years ago - that was the basis of the RJ pulldown plan and the 717 acquisitions.

think you can list the number of cities that DL has added mainline service to which haven't had mainline service in years?

as for DAL, there were people on here who were saying that DL wouldn't be at DAL after the WA but they are letting go of that rhetoric... probably because the evidence is growing that DL will be there as I expected. The two gates are not the only way that DL will have access to DAL.

 

[does this plane go to paris]

"but DL figured it out several years ago"
 
Following WN's lead, since they got into it?

 

[WorldTraveler]

uh.... DL is picking up the 717s which WN decided they didn't want. Not sure what lead DL followed from WN but WN has never flown regional jets. DL realized several years ago that the RJ fad was ending and is taking steps to shift capacity to mainline and from regional carriers.

 

[Kev3188]

again, how many of those cities were served by mainline or even over 100 seats/day? In many cases they were EAS service served by turboprops.

Guess you missed that regional carrier service is getting harder and harder to justify - but DL figured it out several years ago - that was the basis of the RJ pulldown plan and the 717 acquisitions.

That won't be news to anyone reading this thread, nor was it the point. Since you've insisted in hammering the "WN closed 18 stations" angle into oblivion, I'm just pointing out that they hardly have that market cornered... You know, presenting a full picture and all that...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm all for full disclosure but let's also make it clear that 18 cities that were EAS subsidized service, some of which had a shared schedule between two cities and a hub is not the same thing as cities that had mainline service, some of which were served 2-3 times per day, even if that is below WN's normal staffing level.

As much as a lot of people want to see it differently, the DL/NW merger was the only one that took place before $3/gal jet fuel prices were the sustained norm and the economics of a lot of routes changed after DL's merger. That is not the case with WN and there is no major cost or revenue item that changed after the merger that they should not have known about before the merger was announced.