Finally; Non-stops from Dallas to LGA---

[Kev3188]

And?

 

[eolesen]

and WN was surprised to find out the size of FL in these cities AFTER they announced the merger? Even while telling everyone that the merger would result in growth....

Nope. Nobody was surprised to find out those cities were closing, either.

Some of us actually predicted back in 2011 which cities wouldn't survive the merger and which would be consolidated. (see http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/50659-where-is-fl-outsourced/)

Growth? That comes in different forms. I suspect WN is making better use of those aircraft outside those markets both in terms of utilization and ASM's. Heck, they're probably carrying more people with fewer airplanes because of it.
 

tell us, E, how many of those DL/NW stations were served by mainline aircraft, let alone nearly all a minimum of 100 seats or more per day and many twice or more than amount.

Sorry Charlie. Don't care. Also don't need to accommodate your narrative.
 

the landing fees at any of the stations were secret information, robbed? the size of subsidies MIGHT have been confidential information but other airlines knew the size of many of FL's subsidies.

Yeah, about that. I did a little digging, and it appears most of FL's subsidies had already ended by the time the merger talks had started. There probably were a few still left, but of all the markets I listed for closing, I could only find where ACY still had one, and it wasn't renewed.

That was right before WN cleaned house on the "not big enough for a dozen 24 Walmart Supercenters" markets.

Of course, you're always free to try and list the ones which were still active, if you're so interested in being wright.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Nope. Nobody was surprised to find out those cities were closing, either.

Some of us actually predicted back in 2011 which cities wouldn't survive the merger and which would be consolidated. (see http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/50659-where-is-fl-outsourced/)

Growth? That comes in different forms. I suspect WN is making better use of those aircraft outside those markets both in terms of utilization and ASM's. Heck, they're probably carrying more people with fewer airplanes because of it.
 

Sorry Charlie. Don't care. Also don't need to accommodate your narrative.
 

Yeah, about that. I did a little digging, and it appears most of FL's subsidies had already ended by the time the merger talks had started. There probably were a few still left, but of all the markets I listed for closing, I could only find where ACY still had one, and it wasn't renewed.

That was right before WN cleaned house on the "not big enough for a dozen 24 Walmart Supercenters" markets.

Of course, you're always free to try and list the ones which were still active, if you're so interested in being wright.

the end of the subsidies before the merger proves my point that there were no surprises.

yeah... I'm sure there were people, including you, who recognized that WN wouldn't save a lot of those cities but why didn't WN and FL say the same thing?

You roast DL for cutting CVG and MEM as CONNECTING hubs but WN cut far more spoke cities that were totally dropped from the network... and remember that WN IS cutting some of its own original cities.

I have no problem with WN doing that or seeking higher profit opportunities but just don't try to argue that other carriers don't do the same thing and vice versa and WN is no different in that regard from legacy carriers which is what I have said all along.

and, what, Kev?

 

[eolesen]

Oh, WN was definitely telegraphing what they were going to do. Apparently, they didn't see fit to copy you in...

You're correct that WN did cut spokes from the network, but even with those "massive" cuts, it only amounted to 12 departures being eliminated at ATL.

More importantly, their traffic at ATL isn't down anywhere near what happened at MEM and CVG:

The loss of traffic at MEM and CVG was massive, and DL/NW made up 80% of the boardings at those two airports during their peak.

Losing 80% of your boardings is catastrophic to an airport. It leaves entire concourses abandoned, and there's no way for the airport authorities to offset that loss of income, let alone repay the bonds that they'd taken out to invest into facilities and infrastructure.

At ATL, FL/WN makes up about 15-20% of the boardings. Sure, they're down from their peak, but the impact isn't felt nearly as much by the airport (if anything, DL's growth is offsetting FL's drops).

And let's be clear: the criticism around CVG and MEM isn't about eliminating them as hubs. It's how they went about it.

They pretended that everything would survive the merger. And then came the representation votes in 2010. The graph shows what happened after the votes were behind DL...

Fault WN if you must, but it appears they've been a lot more transparent in how their cuts took place.

 

[swamt]

And all this is ok because WT is using "mainline traffic".  HUH! How funny.  I just love how he twist and turns everything around to his favor.  Gotta love this stuff...

 

[WorldTraveler]

neither DL or WN or any other airline for that matter are going to hurt their own financial interests in order to support concessions at the airport - which is about the only interest an airline has in seeing large numbers of connecting passengers at an airport.

You're grasping for straws, E, regarding the union vote. DL was legally required to not implement any changes to the employment aspects - and the union votes all came within a few weeks of each other.

Remember that all of the PMNW union groups did not get pay increases which had been given to PMDL employees - and they got the pay raises as soon as the votes were validated.

I get the whole thing between mainline and RJ cities and if DL was cutting a city that was served 4 or more times per day on a 50 seater, the effect would have been as great as if WN had cut 2 717 flights/day. Yet only the FL cities that were served less than daily would have come close to having as little capacity as DL had with the RJ cities.

You can hammer away with CVG and MEM but it will happen at other carriers. And the fact that DL is growing at ATL is precisely why WN's status even in the local community is diminishing.

I respect WN and what it has done and what it is now... but let's all get real and admit that WN is not dramatically different from the legacy carriers at this point... the legacy carriers have upped their game, learned how to compete, and have built global route systems that are profitable. WN has tremendous customer loyalty and product advantages like the bags fly free thing (on WN metal anyway) but they don't have the depth of frequent flyer programs, alliances, or global networks which are part of what it takes TO WIN in the corporate travel market.
and as much as swamt wants to believe otherwise, the legacy carriers are battle hardened after 35 years of deregulation and have figured out how to neutralize the advantages the low fare carriers have had.

WN is at the point where it is trying to adapt to the realities of the CURRENT marketplace - not what existed years ago - but is also trying to create its own unique advantages.

 

[eolesen]

Maintaining lab conditions for employment has no limitations against an airline making network adjustments.

Again, you can say that what WN's done in ATL is the same in principle as what DL did in CVG and MEM if you wish.

The data says otherwise.

 

[WorldTraveler]

take it up with DL mgmt. and the NMB. DL chose not to make any network decisions that could impact its employees until the vote is validated.

I wouldn't exactly brag that WN is let off the hook at ATL because DL is growing... just diminishes the value of the $2B that WN paid for FL and puts that money into DL's stockholders hands.

BTW, did you see that DL has pushed thru the $30B market cap ceiling? can you tell us when any other US airline has been at a market cap that higher or higher? throw in the global airlines to try and come up with a list that isn't just DAL, DAL, and DAL (Delta Air Lines).

you gotta love it.

 

[swamt]

SWA purchased AT for 1.4 billion not 2 billion.  AGAIN someone that has no clue talking about SWA.
BTW WT,  we'll see if as you say, "the legacies have upped their game and learned how to compete"    They haven't upped their game, they haven't learned how to compete, they simply used the BK process to gut and cut their employees to the point that most have to have 2 jobs just to make ends meet.  Yea they really upped their game and learned,  C'mon.  It'll all happen again in another 10-12 years when the legacies are once again managed righ back into BK again...

 

[does this plane go to paris]

BTW, did you see that DL has pushed thru the $30B market cap?
 

I take it that Delta is considered an Investment Grade stock?  The answer is no.
 
Anderson certainly is pushing for it to be upgraded but with last year having only a 10% ROI it was sufficient.  The only airline stock that is Investment Grade is LUV.  They had a ROI of 13%.   Expansion will return when it hits 15%.  In the mean time they are ingesting AirTran, making small inroads on International markets and training the company on a new computer system.
 
Maybe one day if Delta keeps trying they'll be like Southwest and be Investment Grade worthy.
 
Gotta LUV it.

 

[Kev3188]

Maintaining lab conditions for employment has no limitations against an airline making network adjustments.

Citing applicable labor law doesn't fit the narrative...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I take it that Delta is considered an Investment Grade stock?  The answer is no.
 
Anderson certainly is pushing for it to be upgraded but with last year having only a 10% ROI it was sufficient.  The only airline stock that is Investment Grade is LUV.  They had a ROI of 13%.   Expansion will return when it hits 15%.  In the mean time they are ingesting AirTran, making small inroads on International markets and training the company on a new computer system.
 
Maybe one day if Delta keeps trying they'll be like Southwest and be Investment Grade worthy.
 
Gotta LUV it.

yes, I am aware of that... but LUV's market cap AND revenues are nowhere near DL's are they?

And WN still has learned that not directly engaging in direct competition with legacy carriers is part of the way they have kept their revenues up.

In contrast, DL has been one of the most aggressive airlines in embracing competition with other airlines, including WN, and still has generated the world's highest profit among publicly traded airlines.
 
 

Citing applicable labor law doesn't fit the narrative...

yet, DL maintained laboratory conditions including not closing hubs....

I'm sure you would have preferred that they had moved sooner and lost the vote, but they have done an outstanding job of keeping their employees on their side and not interested in unions for decades.

 

[WNMECH]

yes, I am aware of that... but LUV's market cap AND revenues are nowhere near DL's are they?

And WN still has learned that not directly engaging in direct competition with legacy carriers is part of the way they have kept their revenues up.

In contrast, DL has been one of the most aggressive airlines in embracing competition with other airlines, including WN, and still has generated the world's highest profit among publicly traded airlines.
 
 

yet, DL maintained laboratory conditions including not closing hubs....
.

You like to rewrite history.

This is after Delta was forced into bankruptcy.
Guess you don't recall that in the years before all these bankruptcies, WNs market cap was more than the legacies combined.
Now that they have screwed their shareholders, their creditors, there retirees and the tax payers, they can claim profits from an artificially created new cost structure.

And I guess you want to forget that Delta was forced to de-hub DFW.

WN on the other hand has had over 40 consecutive years of REAL profits, with no bankruptcies.

Swish. See ya.

 

[swamt]

Good point WN...

 

[WorldTraveler]

You like to rewrite history.

This is after Delta was forced into bankruptcy.
Guess you don't recall that in the years before all these bankruptcies, WNs market cap was more than the legacies combined.
Now that they have screwed their shareholders, their creditors, there retirees and the tax payers, they can claim profits from an artificially created new cost structure.

And I guess you want to forget that Delta was forced to de-hub DFW.

WN on the other hand has had over 40 consecutive years of REAL profits, with no bankruptcies.

Swish. See ya.

I forgot nothing.

You apparently want to live in a time warp to avoid admitting that this isn't 2003 or 2005 or 2007.

BK is a legal process..... like it or not. The US auto industry has been thru the ringer too.

WN doesn't have the advantage it once had and DL is looking forward and continues to climb.

I've talked for years about the major strategic challenges that WN would face and they are now happening

WN will get thru it but WN's glory days are in the past for now... and it is up to all WN stakeholders to decide whether and when WN returns to them.

For now, WN has to compete with a much stronger legacy carrier segment of the industry that is winning in the marketplace and DL is by far the most aggressive example of that. Whether DL just had a head start that other legacies will match in time or not remains to be seen but for now it is a given that WN is going to have to fight a whole lot harder for its revenues than it has ever fought in the past.

welcome to 2014.