Southwest gets ready for end of Write Amendment

[robbedagain]

They dont physically have them they leased it from aa No I dont think doj is immune from any political influence but just bec dl says they want the gates and that they can better utilize them does not necessarily mean they will get the gates Even though they published their schedule for those flights at that airport before they get the gates it cld backfire as kev said.

 

[eolesen]

Again, lots of deflection... WT's given his reasons for why WN won't get them repeatedly, yet seems convinced that DL will get them.

If he is correct about DL being "the largest airline in the local DFW market to its primary hubs" then it would appear to me that statement undercuts the argument even more than it supports DL's case.

If they're already the largest airline in those markets, what argument is there to say that they deserve a scarce resource to serve those same markets from the second airport in Dallas? In order to remain competitive? They're already competitive.

Put another way... If WN won't be allowed to further increase its dominance, why should DL be allowed to?

 

[robbedagain]

good points e

 

[WorldTraveler]

Actually the points are not accurate because they are based on the notion that the federal government can pick and choose carriers or establish prices in the domestic market - and they cannot based on deregulation of 1978.

The DOJ cannot make any determination about what markets any carrier serves as part of the process of allocating resources. They can look at overall market share which is the approach they took in the DL-US slot swap divestitures as well as in the AA-US settlement agreement. The DOJ cannot consider the market share for any carrier in these proceedings based on specific markets. They can look at the ability of any carrier to gain access to a market which is the basis they have used for the low cost carriers which they have allowed to bid on slots at DCA and LGA, even though the more accurate terminology would have been carriers that have less than X% share - the type of terminology they used during the DL-US slot swap divestitures.

Therefore, it is immaterial and cannot be considered what share any carrier has in any DAL or DFW specific market but rather the entire market which the DOJ has consistently defined by airports.

Further, the logic about WN being disadvantaged falls apart once again because they dominate the N. Texas market from the cities they do serve from DAL. WN not only is the largest carrier at DAL but they also have a history of pricing low enough to force out or lock out other competitors only to obtain the dominant position in the markets they serve.

ATL and PHL are proof that WN doesn't play in markets unless it can obtain a fairly high percent of specific markets.

WN won't be gaining any more gates at DAL as long as there is one other carrier that has an interest in them. DL has made it clear they intend to use at least two gates at DAL to provide a true competitive balance to the N. Texas market.

 

[robbedagain]

Just a short side track about phl... wn did make a run at it against us bec at the time us was financially strapped but us responded and forced wn to back off.....


back to our regularly scheduled debates

 

[737823]

Just a short side track about phl... wn did make a run at it against us bec at the time us was financially strapped but us responded and forced wn to back off.....


back to our regularly scheduled debates

Robbed, I'm sure WT will weigh in but I don't think PHL has ever been a major station for DL/NW nor is particularly strategic for DL, even to the extent larger non-hub stations like BOS, MCO, RDU, SFO, etc are. Pretty sure DL only has flights to hubs from PHL, many of which are on DCI and they don't have a crew base there but I could be wrong.

Josh

 

[eolesen]

Again, a huge missive about why WN won't get the gates, which nobody seems to disagree with.

At the same time, continued ignorance over the fact that DOJ was pretty specific in how they seek to ensure a competitive balance.

 

[robbedagain]

So true e josh dl does have a sizeable presences in phl butni was referring to when wn built up a large amt only to scale back

 

[WorldTraveler]

Just a short side track about phl... wn did make a run at it against us bec at the time us was financially strapped but us responded and forced wn to back off.....


back to our regularly scheduled debates

you are absolutely correct.
WN used the financial weakness of a number of legacy airlines in the first half of the decade of the 2000s to dramatically expand outside of WN's historically core markets.

Because WN had success with US in the past, WN tried again at PHL but US fought back and WN backed off to the point that PHL is a decent station for WN but it isn't the large station they might have had in mind.

As much as anyone wants to believe otherwise, WN does not like to engage in lengthy battles to maintain its presence in key markets.

They are still doing it in DEN a decade after developing that city and WN realizes they don't have the cost advantage which propelled their growth in the 2002-2006/7 time period.
 
 

Again, a huge missive about why WN won't get the gates, which nobody seems to disagree with.

At the same time, continued ignorance over the fact that DOJ was pretty specific in how they seek to ensure a competitive balance.

and equally you and others refuse to accept that the DOJ cannot reregulate domestic air transportation by selecting winners and losers in the industry.

The only reason why LCCs get a chance at gaining slots at DCA and LGA is because they have a minimal presence there; the legacy carriers do not.

WN IS the dominant airline at DAL and they would gain an even larger presence and an almost completely monopoly of the airport by being able to acquire more gates.

They aren't going to get any more gates at DAL unless there is absolutely no other carrier. Period.

Regardless of what other carriers might want to do, DL does want to compete from DAL and will be serving DAL post-Wright to a number of cities.

 

[Kev3188]

Robbed, I'm sure WT will weigh in but I don't think PHL has ever been a major station for DL/NW nor is particularly strategic for DL, even to the extent larger non-hub stations like BOS, MCO, RDU, SFO, etc are. Pretty sure DL only has flights to hubs from PHL, many of which are on DCI and they don't have a crew base there but I could be wrong.

Josh

 
I guess it depends on what one's definition of "major" is. Not sure how many we have currently, but NW had something like 15-20 flights/day, mostly M/L. Certainly not on a par with the hubs or focus cities you mentioned, but not tiny, either...
 
IIRC, the only non hub route flown today is PHLRDU... 
 
No crew base is correct.

 

[737823]

Seems fairly small to me especially compared to other DL stations. Again the relative size isn't the point here, I am saying from what I can tell it doesn't seem PHL has ever been a critical market for DL. Back in the NWA days did they ever serve AMS? Obviously it's a major business center and needs to be a part of the network but many other markets have considerably more service on larger aircraft and more gates, personnel, and facilities than DL devotes there. It seems B6 is staying in on BOS route, I wonder when they will add Florida or other routes.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

I vaguely recall PHLAMS service, but would have to wade off into the interwebs to confirm that...

 

[737823]

Do you recall NWA at BOS? It wasn't a major station as of 2008 with only a few gates and just flights to hubs but throughout the 80s and 90s didn't NW have a whole network of Europe flying from BOS?

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Yes.

 

[robbedagain]

Durin my time in bos nwa had a dc 10 from bos to ams they had a sizeable large ops even more so than say twa