AAA ALPA Thread 9/28 to 10/5

[AWA320]

You keep saying this but it's yet to be proven. Why not negotiate a joint CBA and put it vote so we can find out? Since you know you're right you have nothing to fear.

Please!! He's got everything to fear. He just like their MEC lied to their pilots and promised the moon but didn't and can't deliver. They don't have the money and the majority of the cards they collected belong to pilots who are on furlough soon to be purged. They don't have the numbers and will never get them!!!

 

[Tiger 1050]

Aw fer the love of ...whatever: Spare me/us any more of the standard AWA BS about "Honor"...in ANY form thank you very much. I've backed mine at the very possible cost of my life in national service...WTF gives some puppy like yourself any self entitlement for such a big mouth? You tell me what agreement I've made with you that I've not honored? Last time I looked? = This was/is a toxic soup broiled up in an ALpo dungeon's cauldron, and nothing that I signed on for.
"and we'll hold our position right were we are" Knock yourself out then.

Addendum: I shouldn't rise up with such chest thumping anger, but issues of "Honor" are things I take seriously. Should the current impasse continue indefinately, there's no guaranteed outcome other than "war" between our two factions. The only warranty implied within any "war" is that suffering results. Given that so many out west seem set upon your "position", and have no thoughts of seeing the east pay/benefits enhanced without the St Nic gift....It might behoove them to stop pathetically whining about "stagnation", and any other discomforts that attend such a mess as we have here. You guys want "war"? = Fine..at least show the slightest bit of class about it

The Tempe Twits must meanwhile laugh themselves sick over the perfectly divided employee groups.

"Favor and honor sometimes fall more fitly on those who do not desire them."
Titus Livius

Word to live by my friend...

 

[Phoenix]

Within his group, US east, for instance, that is true.

Shark, Don't fall for the poppycock that seniority is measured from the bottom of the list.

Your seniority has always been measured from the top. Transitory and temporary elements of the company never affect your seniority.

The company can change all manner of things like staffing levels, aircraft types, crew bases, etc. and your seniority does not change.

Your seniority ONLY changes when pilots above you retire. In five years everyones seniority has increased by a couple thousand positions!

 

[Bear96]

Which time?

The time that really mattered because it triggered BINDING arbitration.

 

[sharktooth]

Your seniority ONLY changes when pilots above you retire. In five years everyones seniority has increased by a couple thousand positions!

His point was about the bottom of the list.

You are correct also. My point, poorly stated, was that while his relative seniority, compared to his downsizing company, did not change, of course his seniority "increases" as pilots retire, go out on medical, etc. and so on. I had not gotten to the fact that the downsizing was not for financial concerns but to better match a potential merger, something I don't think the pilot should be "punished" for.

I was also addressing seniority across companies and why seniority is generally attached to length of service, in nearly every industry.

I was waiting for his comment about US being an "new" company, for which I would have to tell him that my check has the same letterhead on it. As long as I get paid by USAirways, it ain't new, except for the less competent bozos running it.

 

[hp_fa]

I was waiting for his comment about US being an "new" company, for which I would have to tell him that my check has the same letterhead on it. As long as I get paid by USAirways, it ain't new, except for the less competent bozos running it.

Yeah, Doug Parker thought there was "value" in that name. After all the other poppycock that he didn't think would happen because of picking that name for a new company I wonder if he would do it again?

 

[a320av8r]

Yeah, Doug Parker thought there was "value" in that name. After all the other poppycock that he didn't think would happen because of picking that name for a new company I wonder if he would do it again?

Naw, he'd keep American West, there's value!

 

[Phoenix]

His point was about the bottom of the list.

Career expectations are never based on how far one is from the bottom of the list.

 

[Cactus737]

Cactus737,

When lines are drawn then there will never be a solution. Most of you know that the nic award is a deal breaker for a JNC. We have the votes for USAPA and FYI a very large margin to make sure it will happen. Now we can continue the war for the next 2+ years or work to solve it. It is your MEC's approach is not going work. They think MONEY will not cure this. The cards are coming in each and every day this goes on and the time to be realistic is now.

I don't think it's my MEC's approach to BUY anybody, they're simply responding to the desire of the AWA pilots to get an extremely overdue contract. Despite our unused Section 6 rights, we still think the fastest way to money (and most leverage) is through a joint CBA.

BTW - interesting comment about drawing lines in the sand. IMHO - Prater waffling about the award didn't help with that and only drove both sides to their respective corners. Having said that, the only line in the sand I've seen my MEC take is insist upon continuing to abide by the Transition Agreement. Absent viable alternatives offered up by your MEC, we see no reason to change course. It's sort of like when the company decides they don't like part of your contract, and then comes to your MEC for relief. Do you think your MEC should just grant the relief, or should a negotiation ensue?

Meanwhile, your MEC has passed a resolution seeking permanent separate operations, no Nicolau Award (even if with fences), no JNC without immediate pay parity, no travel to PHX for negotiations, and has filed a lawsuit against the AWA MEC. I'm confused as to how you think ANY of those actions aren't drawing a line in the sand. I'm also curious as to how you believe those resolutions will lead to ending the war. Oh, I forgot, your MEC isn't showing up to Rice Committee meetings anymore, which is the ONLY venue in which discussions were being moderated between both groups.

Also, it was interesting to see a former AAA MEC Chairman's comments in a new article stating that resolution between the groups would be difficult because the AWA MEC had good reason to not consider the AAA MEC credible. I can find that quote if you'd like.

As for USAPA, frankly, I think if you had all the cards you needed, you would have filed already while there's still momentum. But hey - maybe I'm wrong. You just have to excuse us for not thinking any of your threats are credible after anymore we've seen you fail to deliver on so many of them.

But I'll tell you what I see with the USAPA path - IF it even materializes as a path: It'll be a total uphill battle for you guys, and not so much for us. We won't pay dues and instead pool our money into busting USAPA via DFR lawsuits and other measures. ALPA will continue to rigorously defend Nicolau even if they're off the property - not so much because they want to hose you, but more so because they don't want there to be a legal precedent set that arbitrator's awards can be set aside. They'll throw alot of resources at that, and they'll probably help us see you fail. Meanwhile, whipsawing begins, nobody gets a raise, and we end up back where we started - with the TA, two contracts, and the Nicolau Award.

Nothing against USAPA guys personally. I respect anybody who works hard selflessly to help better others, and I think that's all the USAPA founders are really trying to do. But I hope you can reasonably understand why the deck is definitely stacked against you and why we consider USAPA a threat to us (although be it an empty threat).

Meanwhile, I haven't received a response as to how you think having AWA pilots take all the furloughs while AAA pilots take all of the upgrades is fair and equitable. It'll be a question the courts will certainly answer IF USAPA ever comes to life, so you might as well start thinking of an answer now.

Meanwhile, if there's a TRUE path to resolution, I'm all ears.

 

[P51Pilot]

But I'll tell you what I see with the USAPA path - IF it even materializes as a path: It'll be a total uphill battle for you guys, and not so much for us. We won't pay dues and instead pool our money into busting USAPA via DFR lawsuits and other measures. ALPA will continue to rigorously defend Nicolau even if they're off the property - not so much because they want to hose you, but more so because they don't want there to be a legal precedent set that arbitrator's awards can be set aside. They'll throw alot of resources at that, and they'll probably help us see you fail. Meanwhile, whipsawing begins, nobody gets a raise, and we end up back where we started - with the TA, two contracts, and the Nicolau Award.

Do you think NWA, DELTA, UAL, and CAL are going to be over eager to have THEIR money spent in defending the NIC award. Let's face it, somebody will be paying for it if ALPA takes that path. Personally, I think their resources will be centered around convincing the UAL group not to leave or else ALPA will just self implode.

 

[Cactus737]

Do you think NWA, DELTA, UAL, and CAL are going to be over eager to have THEIR money spent in defending the NIC award. Let's face it, somebody will be paying for it if ALPA takes that path. Personally, I think their resources will be centered around convincing the UAL group not to leave or else ALPA will just self implode.

Yes, but that doesn't really matter because ALPA is legally obligated to continue defense of that award.

 

[P51Pilot]

Yes, but that doesn't really matter because ALPA is legally obligated to continue defense of that award.

They will have the same bloated structure and 11 million less in revenue. Expect ALPA to take care of itself and nothing else. That is one certainty you can be assured of with ALPA. Their lawyers won't argue principle but self interest and it remains to be seen what view they will take on their obligations at that point. If the NIC award or your interest happen not to be theirs, you are screwed if you are relying on their help.

 

[sharktooth]

Career expectations are never based on how far one is from the bottom of the list.

Tell him.....

 

[hp_fa]

Do you think NWA, DELTA, UAL, and CAL are going to be over eager to have THEIR money spent in defending the NIC award.

Within reason, I think the answer is yes. Why? Because they see themselves in potentially the same situation in the future and would probably prefer that if there is to be a fight, it is one in which they have no direct interest. In fact, I suspect they would see a lack of ALPA involvement as a sign of weakness and cause them to consider the usefulness of membership in an organization that would not enforce it's rules, regulations and by-laws.

 

[nostradamus]

United pilots also seem unhappy with ALPA. I think there are good points made on their web site why to have your own in house union. American Airlines and Southwest airlines pilots, the best paid pilots in the industry by the way, have their own pilots union, they are not associated with ALPA. I think there is no chance to salvage the careers of the older Usairways pilots. But it would be nice to vote ALPA off the property enjoy the holidays off at the same time this season.

I have added a link below for the many United Airline pilots that are dissatisfied. Listen to their opinions and give it a thought. One of their links are to our new union that will be voted in soon.

United Pilots Association. The Majority Will Be Heard.