AAA ALPA Thread 9/28 to 10/5

[Tiger 1050]

That analogy is a house of cards and falls apart as time moves forward. It's a snapshot and not dynamic and does not reflect any number of items.

The fact is that US Airways still exists is due to the huge sacrifices that it's pilot group made by way of pay cuts, work rules, pension termination, furloughs etc.

Only to survive long enough to see the AWA merger. Apart from your sacrifices would have you receiving more of what you had at best. You said it yourself(see above) that this was the standard for you guys at AAA prior to the merger... Attrition maybe. Furlough more likely and outright liquidation very probable.

Relative seniority does not account for these sacrifices, nor the fact that in the example you referenced that individual may be scheduled to retire in the top 100 or top 50 and will rapidly advance due purely to attrition. What you propose would transfer the time vested in his craft, benefits, and the payoff for his/her sacrifices to someone else over time beginning one day after the snapshot(relative seniority) integration.

You guys like to use the lottery example a lot. So let's use that as an analogy... When you buy a lottery ticket do you believe you should win every time? I mean c'mon you spent money on it! You've invested in the lottery! It should be required that it provides winnings for you, right? Fact is while your sacrifices were tremendous it did not guarantee anything. Even your job. You knew that then but you deny it now. This issue is dead. Nic will stand. We had equal opportunity to present our case to the arbitration board and Nic is what we get... The law will support the AWA position on this as well. USAPA or ALPA you will not over turn the Nic award.

 

[BottomFeeder]

USA320pilot said:
I have to laugh to myself every time I read this claim about the East being happy to live with LOA93 forever if necessary, then picketing and crying to the media and anyone who will listen about how unfair this bankruptcy contract is to them and how badly they want pay parity. The duality of their persona is sadly humorous. Especially when you realize that they have the process in place to get pay parity, yet choose not to pursue it because it is not going to happen on their terms.

I don’t understand why you keep quoting Paul Rice’s “realistic solutions†because it only goes against your own argument. By realistic solutions he is referring to the East coming off their “DOH/LOS†mantra. That is where the solution begins. You will never, ever get your DOH in this or any other merger because you are simply not entitled to it. And everyone but your group understands this irrefutable truth.

You will see a TA presented for membership ratification that includes significant pay and quality of life improvements for everyone (not just the few who will may upgrade in the next year or so), a reasonable timetable for implementation of the award (which will take care of those who will upgrade soon), and provisions limiting the West from flooding east and taking flying (and preventing anyone from bumping to reserve). The company and ALPA know what the target is to get a contract ratified and will shoot slightly above that to ensure it. All you have to do is listen to the growing number of pilots like Jetz to see that your camp is losing support. Heck, just ask the pilots who picketed in BOS if they would accept a major pay raise! But we will see by the end of the year, won’t we? It will be clear when the TA is voted on who was right. Then one of us will either admit to being wrong or make excuses.




By the way, what happened to the representational vote that was going to happen? Is it still “any day†or is it now 4 months away again?

767jetz,

Richard closed the: AAA ALPA Thread 9-21 to 9-27, East ALPA here

You copied post #309 and replied to it.

Are we restarting the closed thread?

 

[hp_fa]

I would guess that something at the tail end of the thread could be reposted if it had not been discussed since the thread was closed due to time limitations rather then end-of-topic considerations.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Sorry but your MEC has drawn a line in your sand and it will not work for the East.

I know, the nerve of our guys refusing to give in to your extortion. So, tell me again how a new union make everything all better?

 

[USA320Pilot]

767jetz,

Your selective post does not accurately represent what was said regarding LOA 93. Every person wants a pay raise and nobody likes a consession.

The majority of East pilots would prefer to live under LOA 93 and prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented than get a pay raise and have the Nicolau Award implemented. Why? The majority of pilots make more money and have better seniority by preventing the Nicolau Award implemented.

I have explained this over-and-over again and you and others do not understand that economically the majority of east pilots are better off keeping things separate. Do the East pilots want a pay raise? Absolutely, but that is separate from JNC talks.

Separately, at stupid statement is when somebody says "they never saw a concession they did not like."

Click here to view an interesting link in the East pilots quest to obtain a pay raise.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[markkus757]

3. SENIORITY ‑ GENERAL
SOURCE ‑ Board 1956; AMENDED ‑ Executive Board December 1971; Administrative January 1998 (Canada Reference Added); Executive Board September 1998

a. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as a pilot with the Company.

b. Seniority shall begin to accrue from the date upon which a pilot employed by the Company as a pilot begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations and shall continue to accrue during such period of employment except as otherwise provided in his agreement. The date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company's payroll as a pilot and begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations shall establish such pilot's position on the System Seniority List. When two or more pilots are placed on the seniority list on the same date, they shall be placed on such list according to their age; i.e., the oldest pilot shall receive the lowest number, except where prohibited by law.


That's pretty interesting. What I find interesting is that you choose this tidbit to post, but disregard the concept of seniority at a company. You forget that this is not the old US Airways but the new one. So, as far as the new one is concerned, you only have a few years of senority with the company, not what you think you have.

I hate to break the bubble, but if ALPA thinks they are getting kicked off property, they'll make sure they have the last laugh. The list will be submitted because the east got up from the table.

Enjoy..............................

 

[USA320Pilot]

Markku,

Markkus said: "I hate to break the bubble, but if ALPA thinks they are getting kicked off property, they'll make sure they have the last laugh. The list will be submitted because the east got up from the table."

USA320Pilot comments: So what. The Nicolau Award seniority integration cannot be implemented with a a joint contract and a joint contract requires East membership ratification. Regardless of what ALPA International and the AWA MEC does nobody can force a contract on the East pilots and the Policy Manual requires membership ratification.

Therefore, no integration, no joint contract, and a NMB ordered representational election.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[markkus757]

I'm sure you'd be surprised how many east pilots would vote for a contract. I know you think that it woulds be close to unanimous; but, a lot of people talk big publically but vote as a coward in private. The longer this drags out, IMO the less pilots will vote against it. Reasonable people will eventually want to get on with their lives. Some people call it war weariness.


P.S. Don't rebut with your propaganda. It's old and we've all read it already.

 

[EastUS]

I'm sure you'd be surprised how many east pilots would vote for a contract. I know you think that it woulds be close to unanimous; but, a lot of people talk big publically but vote as a coward in private. The longer this drags out, IMO the less pilots will vote against it. Reasonable people will eventually want to get on with their lives. Some people call it war weariness.
P.S. Don't rebut with your propaganda. It's old and we've all read it already.

"a lot of people talk big publically but vote as a coward in private." "Some people call it war weariness." Whew!..whenever I fret about becoming overly cynical....there's always some noble and righteous AWA sort around to post something that relieves my fears on the issue. Pathetic.

 

[markkus757]

YOU'RE pathetic. I don't even work for an airline; I do however work in the industry. I also know that my dollars go elsewhere until both sides grow up a little. BTW, when are you changing your symbol from LCC to LSC?

:down:

 

[EastUS]

YOU'RE pathetic. I don't even work for an airline; I do however work in the industry. I also know that my dollars go elsewhere until both sides grow up a little. BTW, when are you changing your symbol from LCC to LSC?

:down:

My mistake then as per your being an AWA person. I'll stick by the rest though...you seem to be counting on the vilest aspects of human nature to triumph, and seem to espouse such a possible eventuality to equate to "grow up a little" = a pretty pathetic perspective.

 

[markkus757]

You and your mouthpiece flying the Airbus are proving your own point. You evidently are counting on them to triumph as well. You and your union can go take your ball and go home a third time.

 

[nostradamus]

You and your mouthpiece flying the Airbus are proving your own point. You evidently are counting on them to triumph as well. You and your union can go take your ball and go home a third time.

markkus757
Rating: 0
View Member Profile
Find Member's Posts
Posted on: Jul 26 2004, 10:46 PM


Veteran
*****

Group: Registered Member


Posts: 523
Joined: 26-July 04
Member No.: 4,191

markkus757 quote below


mad.gif Dinosaurs beware: This industry has been on the downside for about 40 years. Full service and meals actually meant something back then. You will not make the same money as previously. If you think a union will protect you, then keep drinking the Kool-Aid. People are going to stay in this industry because they like the career, not the benefits or the pay. If that is too tough for you to swallow, then get over it."

QUESTION MARKKUS

Does the company Kool aid taste better than the union Kool aid?

Happy Holidays by the way.

 

[USA320Pilot]

US Airways ALPA MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE - September 27, 2007

This is Arnie Gentile with a US Airways MEC update for Thursday, September 27th, with one new item.

Today marked two years since the merger of US Airways and America West, and instead of a party, cake and candles celebrating success, many of our pilots took their own valuable free time to go to DCA airport in order to hit the pavement and march in protest against pay discrimination here at US Airways. A total of 80 pilots participated, and together they told management and the rest of the world that US Airways East Pilots should be compensated at the same rates of pay as the US Airways West Pilots, and that US Airways will never enjoy labor peace till pay discrimination against the US Airways East pilots comes to an end. Press coverage of the picketing event was good and you will find the US Airways MEC’s Press Release posted under What’s New and it has also been emailed to all pilots.

This was the US Airways pilot’s first picketing event for equal pay, and we are truly on our own. As previously reported, ALPA International has pulled funding for Strike Prep Activities outside the AAA/AWA joint negotiating process. Not surprisingly, a press release today from the AWA MEC took the same position as ALPA National and pledged support only inside the joint negotiating process.

The DCA picketing event was an excellent, first non-ALPA-funded SPC event, especially, in light of the circumstances. However, to be successful, more pilots will need to participate, both in SPC events and the “Three-Prong Approach.†Get involved, talk to Pilot-to-Pilot Reps, and your friends and then pass the story.

Do you have representational issues? You support USAPA? No Problem. Doug Parker and everyone else may want it to be a problem, but it doesn’t have to be. Let’s band together for a pay raise that we so rightfully deserve, for no matter who represents the US Airways Pilots, they will want to have a higher bar from which to negotiate an industry leading contract. To all the pilots who participated in today’s event, a heartfelt thanks.

News you can use:

W.A.R. Item 925

When operating in RVSM, please refer to your current Pilot Handbook for altimeter tolerances.

Educate to Vacate

The following is from a video tape of CEO Doug Parker on February 6, 2007 speaking to a three year America West Pilot complaining about post merger stagnation: if we didn’t do the merger with US Airways, you’d be in a lot worse position. Frankly, I think as a three year F/O, you wouldn’t have a job.

Equal pay for Equal Work:

It has been 27 days since September 1, 2007, the start of retro active pay.
Money to be paid to each Group 2 Captain is $1464
Money to be paid to each Group 2 First Officer is $718.
Pilots on all other aircraft will receive the same percentage increase as Group 2 Pilots (approximately 15%).

Follow the three-prong approach, fly safe and thanks for listening.

 

[traderjake]

That analogy is a house of cards and falls apart as time moves forward. It's a snapshot and not dynamic and does not reflect any number of items.

The analogy is a is a dynamic look at the 5 year progression of the bottom Reserve First Officer at USAir East.

How much seniority did he gain in 5 years of service?

The answer is none, he is no more senior at year five than he was at year one.