AAA ALPA Thread 9/28 to 10/5

[EastUS]

The analogy is a is a dynamic look at the 5 year progression of the bottom Reserve First Officer at USAir East.

How much seniority did he gain in 5 years of service?

The answer is none, he is no more senior at year five than he was at year one.

What/how much was contributed during those five years flying to the company's survival, and that even made this eventual nightmare of a "merger" possible? The answer isn't "none". How about addressing the fact that, absent this merger, and as per the CEO's admission, that at least your three year people wouldn't likely even have jobs now. What's owed for that benefit? I've repeatedly heard about how this is now "a new company". If true?...then how's seniority based upon any/all AWA/US "expectations" relevant in the least? What truly is a reasonable approach? This "if only"/perfect crystal ball/"career expectations" BS's gotten far past tiresome in any form. At least the "we saved you" BS has toned down somewhat, as has the "Righteous Position"...(I still can hardly believe that even Alpo/MEC clowns could have come up with such a term)

The bottom line is that you're group's apparently fine with willfully disregarding years of service performed, and huge sacrifices rendered by others just to have kept this quasi-Titanic marginally afloat. That others did this hardly affords you any moral "high ground" for any attempted piracy.

 

[prechilill]

My mistake then as per your being an AWA person. I'll stick by the rest though...you seem to be counting on the vilest aspects of human nature to triumph, and seem to espouse such a possible eventuality to equate to "grow up a little" = a pretty pathetic perspective.

You seem to have made a lot of mistakes in your life, my friend. Remaining at a failing airline was one of them, but you probably see that now after Nicolau and your pilot neutral put this into perspective. Perhaps you should understand that it is not the whole world that is upside down but it is you. Peace.

 

[prechilill]

The bottom line is that you're group's apparently fine with willfully disregarding years of service performed, and huge sacrifices rendered by others just to have kept this quasi-Titanic marginally afloat. That others did this hardly affords you any moral "high ground" for any attempted piracy.

Attempted piracy LOL. Which one of you rooster came up with that? Too funny. Keep crowing, buddy.

 

[BottomFeeder]

The analogy is a is a dynamic look at the 5 year progression of the bottom Reserve First Officer at USAir East.

How much seniority did he gain in 5 years of service?

The answer is none, he is no more senior at year five than he was at year one.

The answer is which 5 years are you looking at? The 5 years it took to upgrade to Captain. The 5 years post 9-11? The last 5 years?

You seem to have forgot what the East gave up to get the next 5 years.

So with your type of thinking .... in comes USAPA

 

[oldcrow]

I'm sure you'd be surprised how many east pilots would vote for a contract. I know you think that it woulds be close to unanimous; but, a lot of people talk big publically but vote as a coward in private.

I truly hate to agree with you on this but I think you are correct. Over my years as one, the pilot group is a bunch of greedy, "hooray for me to hell with you" type. And this goes for all carriers(remember B scale) not just East Airways. The senior pilots will sacrifice the junior pilots over money and work rules every time. If you don't think so, put a good TA out for a vote and see what happens. It will pass with every senior pilot saying he/she voted no.

 

[EastUS]

You seem to have made a lot of mistakes in your life, my friend. Remaining at a failing airline was one of them, but you probably see that now after Nicolau and your pilot neutral put this into perspective. Perhaps you should understand that it is not the whole world that is upside down but it is you. Peace.

Ah...the prescient fantasies of narcicisstic "youth" in action. As per "Remaining at a failing airline"...please tell us all in precise detail exactly how your "career" will progress, where you'll be/etc in, say.....even a year from now?....perhaps at least a month?/etc? I do seem to recall the AWA ceo telling you guys that, absent this horrid "merger", that bankruptcy looked imminent, and that many of you would've been out of jobs. Hmmm....that also sounds a lot like like "Remaining at a failing airline" to a lot of people Apparently, you weren't smart enough to toss from AWA, and instead, just got very lucky. Don't pretend that said luck has anything to do with the slightest brilliance on your part, as it merely makes you look foolish to do so..."my friend".

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Sorry but your MEC has drawn a line in your sand and it will not work for the East.

ALPA is dead... at least here.

Who was the MEC that drew the line in the sand? :blink:

 

[Cactus737]

The bottom line is that you're group's apparently fine with willfully disregarding years of service performed, and huge sacrifices rendered by others just to have kept this quasi-Titanic marginally afloat. That others did this hardly affords you any moral "high ground" for any attempted piracy.

I think your group is certainly justified in believing that you should be compensated for the huge sacrifices that you made to help the company survive, but I don't understand why you think it's OK to have that compensation come from the America West pilots. If you take a step back and look at YOUR idea of what's fair, it will give AAA pilots all of the upgrades and advancement, and the AWA pilots all of the furloughs. While I can see (but don't agree) with the attrition agrument so often presented, surely you have to agree that your methodology affords you far less moral "high ground".

Let's take an example from the seniority arbitration to discuss why DOH doesn't work in this merger. AAA called Mr. Hershey to testify. Mr. Hershey was hired by US Air in 1989, and at a fairly young age. He testified that he expected to retire #19 at US Air. Despite that *expectation*, Mr. Hershey spent the 16 years before the merger was announced skidding along the bottom of the AAA seniority list, being furloughed not once but twice. At the time the merger was announced, he had been on furlough for almost 2.5 years, with virtually no hope of being recalled.

Let's compare with Mr. Hershey with the AWA Merger Committee Chairman Ken Stravers, who, as luck would have it, was hired at AWA within two weeks of Mr. Hershey. Capt. Stravers's career progressed steadily. He moved down the list slightly during the bankruptcy, but wasn't even close to being furloughed. Not long after exiting bankruptcy, Capt. Stravers upgraded to captain. On the date the merger was announced, Capt. Stravers was in the top third of the AWA list.

How can you take those two guys, who were hired about the same time, and not notice the glaring difference in their career expectations? BTW - Capt. Stravers is NINE (9) years OLDER that Mr. Hershey is.

Even the arbitrator couldn't believe that Mr. Hershey honestly believed that he should still be entitled to retire #19. From the transcripts:


20 CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: You aren't telling me,

21 Mr. Hershey, that when you were hired back in '89

22 you took a look at the seniority list and then over

1 the course of time kept looking at it to make sure

2 you were going to be 19 in your retirement, you

3 aren't telling me that are you?

4 THE WITNESS: No, they actually --

5 CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: No, that is all I have.

Now let's look at a date-of-hire integration. Mr. Hershey would be recalled to the left seat, ahead of 2/3 of the AWA list. Even setting aside the arguments about "financial condition" of the airlines, how can you possibly argue that a pilot on furlough should have immediate right to be a weekends-off block-holding Captain? That proposal doesn't have a basis in reality, and it ignores logic and reason. What's even more absurd is that you expect Captain Stravers to be furloughed alongside Mr. Hershey. Even assuming that AWA WAS going to file bankruptcy absent the merger, do you honestly believe Capt. Stravers had a chance of being furloughed being in the top third of the AWA list?

So, in short, AWA pilots don't disregard your years of service or sacrifices. We just don't think that *we* are responsible for compensating you for that. The fact is that things are much better for your guys now than they were 2.5 years ago. We can't say the same. But, we don't expect YOU to compensate us for that, hence the focus on Parker (the guy who really created this mess) and a joint contract.

 

[EastUS]

So, in short, AWA pilots don't disregard your years of service or sacrifices. We just don't think that *we* are responsible for compensating you for that. The fact is that things are much better for your guys now than they were 2.5 years ago. We can't say the same. But, we don't expect YOU to compensate us for that, hence the focus on Parker (the guy who really created this mess) and a joint contract.

Understood. We couldn't have much of a finer mess to try and sort out into any workable solution. Absent fences that'd be huge enough to show on high alt charts....I've got no short term ready bandages to suggest for this sad situation.

 

[BottomFeeder]

Who was the MEC that drew the line in the sand? :blink:

Which time?

The time when your MEC asked 1 for 1 slotting. Which placed the a guy with 17 years of service and no furlough time. 700+ numbers junior to Save Dave with 2 months of service on probation. Fair? We at the East think not.

Or maybe AWA MEC said "NO" changes to a contract outside of JNC then went and got a change to their own contract for training pay?

Once again your MEC's GREED has given birth to USAPA.

ALPA National has proven that they are worried about the $ and are willing to run rough shod over BOTH of us.

Do you want a union that cares about your interest or a union that cares about money or what will cost them the least?

Thanksgiving is coming and Mr. Turkey Neck will get the axe.


Waiting for the fat lady (man with no balls) to sing.

 

[BottomFeeder]

So, in short, AWA pilots don't disregard your years of service or sacrifices. We just don't think that *we* are responsible for compensating you for that. The fact is that things are much better for your guys now than they were 2.5 years ago. We can't say the same. But, we don't expect YOU to compensate us for that, hence the focus on Parker (the guy who really created this mess) and a joint contract.

Cactus737,

When lines are drawn then there will never be a solution. Most of you know that the nic award is a deal breaker for a JNC. We have the votes for USAPA and FYI a very large margin to make sure it will happen. Now we can continue the war for the next 2+ years or work to solve it. It is your MEC's approach is not going work. They think MONEY will not cure this. The cards are coming in each and every day this goes on and the time to be realistic is now.

 

[sharktooth]

The analogy is a is a dynamic look at the 5 year progression of the bottom Reserve First Officer at USAir East.

How much seniority did he gain in 5 years of service?

The answer is none, he is no more senior at year five than he was at year one.

Within his group, US east, for instance, that is true.

In the matter of mergers, however, his expectation (as well as everyone else) is that he gains five years seniority over someone just hired (by any company), the 70 hour total time wonder in NPRM status, for instance. That is a universally understood "ruler" that every one with an IQ over single-digits understands. The person with five years has more experience than a person with 4.9 years. A pilot with more experience is generally taken to be more competent to fly, even though that difference may be a matter of splitting hairs.

Presuming experience levels, and therefore competency, based on a companies financial health is specious, at best. Which is what a few maintain drove the Nicholau "award". Only an excuse of dementia could lead someone to rank employees based on corporate financial health, something a pilot or pilot group has little or no control over. In fact, considering the cyclical nature of corporate financial health, I doubt any employee would wish their "seniority" determined by the timing of a merger, even the AWA lottery winners; winners this time, losers the next.

Personally, I believe a national seniority list would go a long way to eliminating stress associated with boneheaded mergers like the US/HP debacle. Perhaps USAPA has a stand on this issue?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Cactus737,

When lines are drawn then there will never be a solution. Most of you know that the nic award is a deal breaker for a JNC. We have the votes for USAPA and FYI a very large margin to make sure it will happen. Now we can continue the war for the next 2+ years or work to solve it. It is your MEC's approach is not going work. They think MONEY will not cure this. The cards are coming in each and every day this goes on and the time to be realistic is now.

I think it could be futher debated just who was drawing lines in the sand. That said, you do what you guys must and we'll hold our position right were we are at. So far it has proven to much more effective than bargaining with a group who will not honor their agreements....

 

[BottomFeeder]

I think it could be futher debated just who was drawing lines in the sand. That said, you do what you guys must and we'll hold our position right were we are at. So far it has proven to much more effective than bargaining with a group who will not honor their agreements....

Tiger1050,

Or bargain with a group the says one thing then does another. Such as "No" change to a contract except for JNC. Then get a change to their own contract by getting adjustment to training pay. Double Standard?

 

[EastUS]

I think it could be futher debated just who was drawing lines in the sand. That said, you do what you guys must and we'll hold our position right were we are at. So far it has proven to much more effective than bargaining with a group who will not honor their agreements....

Aw fer the love of ...whatever: Spare me/us any more of the standard AWA BS about "Honor"...in ANY form thank you very much. I've backed mine at the very possible cost of my life in national service...WTF gives some puppy like yourself any self entitlement for such a big mouth? You tell me what agreement I've made with you that I've not honored? Last time I looked? = This was/is a toxic soup broiled up in an ALpo dungeon's cauldron, and nothing that I signed on for.


"and we'll hold our position right were we are" Knock yourself out then.

Addendum: I shouldn't rise up with such chest thumping anger, but issues of "Honor" are things I take seriously. Should the current impasse continue indefinately, there's no guaranteed outcome other than "war" between our two factions. The only warranty implied within any "war" is that suffering results. Given that so many out west seem set upon your "position", and have no thoughts of seeing the east pay/benefits enhanced without the St Nic gift....It might behoove them to stop pathetically whining about "stagnation", and any other discomforts that attend such a mess as we have here. You guys want "war"? = Fine..at least show the slightest bit of class about it

The Tempe Twits must meanwhile laugh themselves sick over the perfectly divided employee groups.