AAA ALPA Thread 9-14 to 9-21, East ALPA here

[cactusmike]

The EC has said that the award followed policy, that there was no violation of ALPA policy and that the award, absent of violations will stand.

The award should have been presented immediately, but the threats from the East side have forced Herndon to consider the award. They have done so and now we are getting "Just the Facts". It should be apparent that ALPA will do it's duty and present the seniority list to management, as they are obligated to do.The East pilots ahve had their heads in the sand for a long time regarding this seniority arbitration. No one seems to have read the transcripts or followed the proceedings very well. Nicholau had no duty to provide for the East's stagnant careers. If you had 18 year F/O's then that was not going to be remedied by this award. That was your problem for staying with a dying airline. ALPA has no National seniority list for just this reason, other pilots should not have to pay for your crappy career.

AWA has followed the rules all the way in this procedure. We neither wanted this merger nor encouraged it. No one else wanted to take on US Air just for the reasons you see here in these threads. You have a workgroup with a sense of entitlement that has not been justified by the track record of their company. If Parker cared about running an airline then he would have run away from this deal. But he is in it for the quick buck and he will take his stock options and grants and fly off into the sunset leaving us with the mess we have today. It is time to quit the BS and start pulling together. The West is not going to let DOH or LOS (same effect) staple us to the bottom of a seniority list we came with. ALPA cannot set aside the award without a huge DFR lawsuit they are sure to lose. No AAA pilot has lost a seat or will lose any seniority because of this award. If you are in the 20th percentile on the old list they you are pretty much 20th percent on the new. The only loss of seniority was the top AWA Captains and some of that was expected because of the A 330.

Bottom line it is time to stop whining about this and time to start negotiating with the company so we can start to make some wage gains again. Parker has put us in this for better or for worse. It would be the height of stupidity if we continued to eat each other instead of taking a bite out of the company.

 

[Tiger 1050]

The EC has said that the award followed policy, that there was no violation of ALPA policy and that the award, absent of violations will stand.

The award should have been presented immediately, but the threats from the East side have forced Herndon to consider the award. They have done so and now we are getting "Just the Facts". It should be apparent that ALPA will do it's duty and present the seniority list to management, as they are obligated to do.The East pilots ahve had their heads in the sand for a long time regarding this seniority arbitration. No one seems to have read the transcripts or followed the proceedings very well. Nicholau had no duty to provide for the East's stagnant careers. If you had 18 year F/O's then that was not going to be remedied by this award. That was your problem for staying with a dying airline. ALPA has no National seniority list for just this reason, other pilots should not have to pay for your crappy career.

AWA has followed the rules all the way in this procedure. We neither wanted this merger nor encouraged it. No one else wanted to take on US Air just for the reasons you see here in these threads. You have a workgroup with a sense of entitlement that has not been justified by the track record of their company. If Parker cared about running an airline then he would have run away from this deal. But he is in it for the quick buck and he will take his stock options and grants and fly off into the sunset leaving us with the mess we have today. It is time to quit the BS and start pulling together. The West is not going to let DOH or LOS (same effect) staple us to the bottom of a seniority list we came with. ALPA cannot set aside the award without a huge DFR lawsuit they are sure to lose. No AAA pilot has lost a seat or will lose any seniority because of this award. If you are in the 20th percentile on the old list they you are pretty much 20th percent on the new. The only loss of seniority was the top AWA Captains and some of that was expected because of the A 330.

Bottom line it is time to stop whining about this and time to start negotiating with the company so we can start to make some wage gains again. Parker has put us in this for better or for worse. It would be the height of stupidity if we continued to eat each other instead of taking a bite out of the company.

While I agree with your post, the east mentality collectively cannot comprehend peace. I believe their self identity is predicated on strife. Look at the history of the place! Never has there been any significant period of time without them hating somebody for something. The whole airline is nothing but a bunch of bad mergers. No wonder they hate. We at AWA just happen to be the flavor of the month... My hope is that the rumors of us being seperated and sold comes to fruition. They say we'd be eaten alive by the likes of NWA? Well I say bring it on. I've lived as much of this US Air lifestyle as I need. I am willing to try anything at this point...

 

[EyeInTheSky]

the east mentality collectively cannot comprehend peace. I believe their self identity is predicated on strife. Look at the history of the place! Never has there been any significant period of time without them hating somebody for something. The whole airline is nothing but a bunch of bad mergers. No wonder they hate. ...I've lived as much of this US Air lifestyle as I need. I am willing to try anything at this point...

Well, that was a good example of a Gen-X'er tantrum. That's the one thing EAST has learned over the likes of you - patience. While you WESTIES are looking for a quick big paycheck at the expense of someone else's career; the EASTIES have always known that a bigger paycheck comes the honest, old-fashioned way - with time and seniority.

Later,
Eye

 

[700UW]

At least we did not release our body fluids into passenger and pilot luggage like your peers did in 1992 when you were having problems with company negotiations.

What a load of horse manure.

Mechanics, Stock Clerks and Utility DO NOT HANDLE LUGGAGE.

Try another lie.

 

[Phoenix]

3- What if an election is called and then USAPA does not win? What will the next move be?

If a street walker threatens to leave her pimp and then doesn't...

 

[767jetz]

John Prater told me the day he saw the Nicolau Award he knew there was a major problem. Why? It is clearly a windfall.

I think we talked about this before. Prater said he knew there was a problem because he knew the mindset and expectations (IMO unreasonable) of the East pilots and knew they would balk at honoring the process they themselves submitted to. His comment has nothing to do with his belief that there is a windfall. That is your own opinion added to explain his comment. In fact the EC from very early on determined that ALPA merger policy was NOT violated and no windfall exists. And the "Just The Facts" letter shows that the EC agrees that list should stand and that the JNC is the path to the best outcome for all.

The windfall thing just isn't going to fly outside the walls of the East MEC's chamber. Everyone knows, or should I say is of the opinion, that the Nicolau award while contrary to the will of the East MEC, is still a fair solution.

The ALPA EC knows the Award violates ALPA Merger Policy,

Again, this is untrue. It is what you think you "know" but is really just an opinion of your MEC that you want the EC to share. See explanation above.

Until this issue is resolved all future mergers could have the same problems and no airline pilot will get a raise until the Nicolau Award issue is settled.

IMO this is an overly dramatic generalization. Yes, an agreement through the JNC that lifts all USAIrways pilots pay and benefits certainly plays well for pattern bargaining. But to say that the whole industry is in held captive is just not true. Look at the success the NWA pilots have had negotiating some improvements. As other airline's contract become amendable, I think you will see the pendulum start to swing in the right direction.

After engaging you in PM's your continued interest in US Airways is evident. You're scared that a US Airways pilot who has more tenure is going to to take their fair share of flying in a potential US-UA merger and you're deathly afraid of the US Airways pilots. Ya know what, if I were you I would be afraid too.

Yes, after engaging in a few PM's I though you were going to stop the condescending tone and inflammatory posts. Am I not allowed to have an interest in how this process plays out? I also thought you understood that just because people disagree with your opinions and statements doesn't mean they can't still engage in useful discussion. Calling me "scared" and taunting me with comments like "I would be afraid too" certainly doesn't do anything to maintain a respectful tone now, does it? And if you were offended by my use of the word "games," perhaps I should have said "tactics" instead. My bad.

But back to the discussion at hand... You talk about an East pilot with more tenure "taking their fair share of flying in a potential US-UA merger" and then you say that you would be afraid if you were me. Are you now implying that in such a merger it would be OK for an East pilot to fly UA's 777's and 747's because of his "tenure" at USAir? I'm confused because above you said this:

You cannot have the AWA pilots inherit most of the high paying international flying after a few years when they never had a widebody job in their future and not have a windfall, which violates ALPA Merger Policy.

So that would sound like a double standard, wouldn't it? Isn't that the same windfall you talk about? And if true that would go to show that the East isn't really interested in "fairness" at all but rather what's right for them at the moment. And then all these arguments about how unfair the Nicolau award is would seem rather hollow. Perhaps you can clarify your position in case I have it wrong.

Finally, the recent Wilson Poll results, recent ALPA EVP information, today's Just the Facts II, and Mike Minerva's recent letter to USAPA has clearly shown how scared the Company and EC are of USAPA. The recent Wilson Poll results and USAPA's threat now has the AWA MEC capitulating and the odds of a compromise are much higher.

Again, I think you are going off the path by saying things like "clearly shown." Obviously the meaning of these items as they apply to the big picture is open to interpretation. I don't see anywhere that the West has capitulated. I think they have said that in the interest of peace they would explore protections within the context of the JNC, but this would require the East to come off their position of DOH/LOS and compromise as well. I also think that the EC and the company will start exerting more pressure on the East to move away from this gridlock. Some would also claim that is "clearly shows" that the East will capitulate and accept pay, benefit, and attrition protections in return for cooperation and honoring their commitments. You see, it works both ways. In the end, I understand why you stand by your opinions, and IMO this will play out to a conclusion of some sort shortly. But perhaps you will consider not speaking in absolutes and understand that many of us just don't see it happening the way you do. I think there will be an eventual solution, but it probably won't happen exactly on your terms or by your will.

Peace,
767jetz

 

[AWA320]

Well, that was a good example of a Gen-X'er tantrum. That's the one thing EAST has learned over the likes of you - patience. While you WESTIES are looking for a quick big paycheck at the expense of someone else's career; the EASTIES have always known that a bigger paycheck comes the honest, old-fashioned way - with time and seniority.

Later,
Eye

Therein lies the problem with your level of thinking or the lack thereof!! You expect to make significant gains as a result of this transaction when you know full well that without it would you be unemployed or best case lower on your own list than you are today due to more massive cuts to help slow the bleeding!!!

Like I said before, you and your comrades think there is a line of Uhaul trucks lined up ready to head east when in all honesty it was you eastie slobbing at the mouth about heading west! You embarrass the profession with your antics!!! All of aviation looks upon you know as the spoiled little brats that you have become, holding your breath until you get what you want. Now we all lose as Parker and Kirby reep the rewards of your cheap rates and claim record profits for the work that we do. Yeah you guys are the best alright!! LOA 93 will be in effect until at least 2012.

 

[nostradamus]

Now we all lose as Parker and Kirby reep the rewards of your cheap rates and claim record profits for the work that we do. Yeah you guys are the best alright!! LOA 93 will be in effect until at least 2012.

Hypocrisy squared

recent America West pilot quotes;

"They made their decision to work at USAir; I made mine to work at America West, which, by the way, has historically been the LOWEST paid airline in the U.S. The East pilots have been paid far and above what America West pilots have been paid over the same period of time doing the same job."

"As for the sacrifices made by the old US Airways pilots through two bankruptcies: "Their salary and benefits cuts have finally brought them down to what we have been paid all along,"

"Before their bankruptcies, for their entire career the US Airways pilots were enjoying industry-leading pay, a defined pension plan (something we never had), work rules -- everything."

Article on how America West pilots undercut the Usairways pilots for years

 

[Barberpole]

Well, that was a good example of a Gen-X'er tantrum. That's the one thing EAST has learned over the likes of you - patience. While you WESTIES are looking for a quick big paycheck at the expense of someone else's career; the EASTIES have always known that a bigger paycheck comes the honest, old-fashioned way - with time and seniority.

Later,
Eye

The average age of the west pilot group is 47 vs 53 on the east. Last time I checked a 47 year old was not considered a Gen-X'er. Not only are you bitter you're also ignorant....

 

[Tiger 1050]

Well, that was a good example of a Gen-X'er tantrum.

Tantrum? More like an observation.

That's the one thing EAST has learned over the likes of you - patience.

Sure your "patient." But I'd say more like stalling. Trying to stall the implementation of a legally binding obligation.

While you WESTIES are looking for a quick big paycheck at the expense of someone else's career; the EASTIES have always known that a bigger paycheck comes the honest, old-fashioned way - with time and seniority.

The WESTIES do not believe they should make restitution for decisions EASTIES made. What ever your reasons, you stuck with AAA through the good AND the bad ( I am not saying that was wrong, just that it is the decision you made). History shows more bad than good. I and my fellow AWA pilots are not going to pay to make you guys whole. To suggest that my investment is any less important or valuable because I made mine 10 yrs ago as opposed to your 20+ is absurd. Tell me how long had you been flying when you were hired at U? It has not come quick or easy for me personally. That is why I will do everything in my power to see this list implemented. You guys wanted to stick it to us and you failed. Get over it...

Later,
Eye

 

[luvn737s]

Luvn737s,

You were an EAL pilot and now you spew your garbage. You should be ashamed of your self!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Jump to conclusions much? Put that on the "Wrong Again" pile.

 

[EastUS]

Tiger: "To suggest that my investment is any less important or valuable because I made mine 10 yrs ago as opposed to your 20+ is absurd. "

It is? You've an interesting method for doing math then. Try explaining to your banker that you want 20+ years interest on a 10 year note If his name's not Nic...you may have some difficulty

 

[prechilill]

Tiger: "To suggest that my investment is any less important or valuable because I made mine 10 yrs ago as opposed to your 20+ is absurd. "

It is? You've an interesting method for doing math then. Try explaining to your banker that you want 20+ years interest on a 10 year note If his name's not Nic...you may have some difficulty

Your old bank was bankrupt, twice! You lost a bunch more than interest, my friend, and that is one reason (of many) George Nicolau and both pilot neutrals used to foumulate the arbitrated seniority list.

 

[EastUS]

Your old bank was bankrupt, twice! You lost a bunch more than interest, my friend, and that is one reason (of many) George Nicolau and both pilot neutrals used to foumulate the arbitrated seniority list.

Good point. Given that, in your estimation at least, US was of no value...Why do you expect anything for your group from such a worthless entity? Seems that you would be fully in favor of allowing fences, and never wish to set foot east of the Miss I'd suggest simply rejoicing in your great good fortune, by way of enlisting yourself in the most successful, and amazing airline (AWA) to ever see the light of day on earth, and continue enjoying life in the desert

 

[Junebug172]

Hey USA320Pilot,

I heard things didn't go so well for your guys today at the EC Meeting?

Go have a 10 hour conversation with your "sources" and report back ASAP.