LETTER TO ALPA PRESIDENT JOHN PRATER

[aquagreen73s]

You know Callsign, since I'm the consummate optimist, I do believe we are just witnessing the worst of the worst on this board. Yes the East MEC is spouting out typical East babble about doing this or doing that or being really really pissed. Yes there is widespread shock, but I think most will get it after a while. It seems there is this weird organization psyche stemming from a minority, which then causes the whole lot to lose their collective sense. Think Germany in the 1940s: overall good people but they sure did some f@cked up things for a while.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

You know Callsign, since I'm the consummate optimist, I do believe we are just witnessing the worst of the worst on this board. Yes the East MEC is spouting out typical East babble about doing this or doing that or being really really pissed. Yes there is widespread shock, but I think most will get it after a while. It seems there is this weird organization psyche stemming from a minority, which then causes the whole lot to lose their collective sense. Think Germany in the 1940s: overall good people but they sure did some f@cked up things for a while.

Think Germany in the 1940s: overall good people but they sure did some f@cked up things for a while.
[/quote]

Hey Aqua....sounds like you just called the East pilots Nazis. Nice.

Moderater, please either give me a day off or Aqua...because my judgement is skewed....did I really just read his post? Greeter

 

[Bear96]

With all due respect, for decades ALPA's merger policy hinged on the concept of DOH. It was the cornerstone of merging pilot groups in a fair and equitable manner. I won't go into why the policy was changed, except to say that it was changed for the worse, in the interest of a influential few and to the detriment of the many.

Unfortunately, that is irrelevant in this situation. The arbitrator had to decide based on the rules as written. The rules as written did not involve DOH. The time to correct that was BEFORE the arbitration.

The arbitrator played by the rules. The rules were written by ALPA. Blaming an umpire for making a call according to the rules because you don't like the rulebook does not make sense.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Unfortunately, that is irrelevant in this situation. The arbitrator had to decide based on the rules as written. The rules as written did not involve DOH. The time to correct that was BEFORE the arbitration.

The arbitrator played by the rules. The rules were written by ALPA. Blaming an umpire for making a call according to the rules because you don't like the rulebook does not make sense.

I disagree. The rules are now poorly written and nebulous. Even so, the merger rules as written state that windfalls should be avoided. When you completely disregard DOH, or length of service, or longevity, or even date of ALPA; then the other party realizes a huge windfall.

Also, agreeing to accept the arbitrator's ruling presupposes that the ruling will be rational. This ruling demonstrates the need for mandatory retirement criteria for arbitrators.

If I were a 30 year old again and a 55 year old who was doing this job twenty years longer jumped ahead of me for captain upgrade, I would be dissapointed, but I would get over it quickly knowing that my time would come, that he payed his dues and that the system is basically fair.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Also, agreeing to accept the arbitrator's ruling(award)

That line right there makes all other arguments a mute point. You have NO choice but to accept the Arbitrators award. You are REQUIRED to. Case closed

 

[PA18]

AWA320

With all due respect, for decades ALPA's merger policy hinged on the concept of DOH. It was the cornerstone of merging pilot groups in a fair and equitable manner. I won't go into why the policy was changed, except to say that it was changed for the worse, in the interest of a influential few and to the detriment of the many.

Piedmont,

With all due respect, the concept of DOH went away on the US East property when the Piedmont pilots stapled the Empire pilots to the bottom of the list.

That same Piedmont pilot group was then vehemently against DOH in the USAir merger. What the Piedmont pilots wanted in that merger is exactly what they are so outraged about the US West pilots getting in this one; that the younger PAI pilots with many less years of service be slotted in among older AAA pilots with many more years of service.

Imagine how much stronger an arbitration case the East pilots would have had if they had been able to show a history of nothing but uncontested DOH mergers on their side.

That's what the flight attendants have always done, and the US East F/A's will still bid with their original (Empire, Allegheny, Mohawk, PSA, Lake Central, Piedmont, or Eastern) DOH after this merger is complete.

 

[Piedmont1984]

That line right there makes all other arguments a mute point. You have NO choice but to accept the Arbitrators award. You are REQUIRED to. Case closed

You have no choice but to sit in the back of the bus.

You have no choice but to leave this restaurant.

You have no choice since you do not have the right to vote.

All I can say is, lets wait and see. And BTW, both my parents immigrated from Russia - I can hear you gears turning from here.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

You have no choice but to sit in the back of the bus.

You have no choice but to leave this restaurant.

You have no choice since you do not have the right to vote.

All I can say is, lets wait and see. And BTW, both my parents immigrated from Russia - I can hear you gears turning from here.

Excellent post. Rules can be changed for the better for those in the future but a arbitration award won't be changed retroactively for the benefit of you.

Can anyone answer me why they would agree to binding arbitration and not accept the award that is legally binding on them?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Piedmont,

With all due respect, the concept of DOH went away on the US East property when the Piedmont pilots stapled the Empire pilots to the bottom of the list.

That same Piedmont pilot group was then vehemently against DOH in the USAir merger. What the Piedmont pilots wanted in that merger is exactly what they are so outraged about the US West pilots getting in this one; that the younger PAI pilots with many less years of service be slotted in among older AAA pilots with many more years of service.

Imagine how much stronger an arbitration case the East pilots would have had if they had been able to show a history of nothing but uncontested DOH mergers on their side.

That's what the flight attendants have always done, and the US East F/A's will still bid with their original (Empire, Allegheny, Mohawk, PSA, Lake Central, Piedmont, or Eastern) DOH after this merger is complete.

PA18

You are correct. I was in favor of slotting. But I accepted the DOH result, because it was fundamentally fair and equitable - even though I was disadvantaged by it.

In the case of Nicolau's decision, my relative position improves slightly, but the overall award is so unfair and irrational - that I find it simply unworkable.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

PA18

In the case of Nicolau's decision, my relative position improves slightly, but the overall award is so unfair and irrational - that I find it simply unworkable.

It doesn't matter what you think.

It is what it is "legally binding".

 

[Piedmont1984]

Excellent post. Rules can be changed for the better for those in the future but a arbitration award won't be changed retroactively for the benefit of you.

Can anyone answer me why they would agree to binding arbitration and not accept the award that is legally binding on them?

Fine, lets change it for the better for those in the future.

Then, lets add a grandfather clause.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Fine, lets change it for the better for those in the future.

Then, lets add a grandfather clause.

"A grandfather clause is an exception that allows an old rule to continue to apply to some existing situations, when a new rule will apply to all future situations"

The arbitration award would be considered old and any changes to the Merger Policy you make now would be considered new.

 

[AWA320]

AWA320

With all due respect, for decades ALPA's merger policy hinged on the concept of DOH. It was the cornerstone of merging pilot groups in a fair and equitable manner. I won't go into why the policy was changed, except to say that it was changed for the worse, in the interest of a influential few and to the detriment of the many.

When two pilots are up for advancement, the pilot who has been there longer should go first. This is a very compelling argument and it certainly trumps the argument of career expectations, particularly in this industry and in this day and age.

You at AWA live and breath by your DOH. The equipment you fly, the seat you occupy, the schedule you enjoy, the holidays you are able to spend with your family - none of them are determined by career expectations.

The number one pilot on your list gets his first choice every single time he chooses. You would never consider rotating him through the list in order to avoid windfalls, or to improve a junior pilot's expectations.

The fellow I flew with this week was slotted by Nicolau behind an AWA pilot who was in grade school when my F/O was hired here.

This award simply defies rationality. It is bizarre. Its right out of Alice in Wonderland.

Piedmont,

Here is the problem that we have arguement. When you have two like carriers (in AGE) DOH would make sense as most would be close in time of service. Here the opposite is true. AWA began service in 1983 while AAA back in the 30's. It is completely unfair to use a system that would place many of our most senior pilots below a pilot furloughed for the past six years. What happened to you at AAA is unfortunate however we should not have to pay the price for that! I feel that the slotting method was more than fair and most, me included lost relative position as a result. DOH would have made us suffer the same fate that AAA pilots have suffered as a result of your companies poor management. I feel for and understand your plight however I don't need to suffer it as well to get the picture.

In the end, I do hope that we can get past this and make some real money.

AWA320

With all due respect, for decades ALPA's merger policy hinged on the concept of DOH. It was the cornerstone of merging pilot groups in a fair and equitable manner. I won't go into why the policy was changed, except to say that it was changed for the worse, in the interest of a influential few and to the detriment of the many.

When two pilots are up for advancement, the pilot who has been there longer should go first. This is a very compelling argument and it certainly trumps the argument of career expectations, particularly in this industry and in this day and age.

You at AWA live and breath by your DOH. The equipment you fly, the seat you occupy, the schedule you enjoy, the holidays you are able to spend with your family - none of them are determined by career expectations.

The number one pilot on your list gets his first choice every single time he chooses. You would never consider rotating him through the list in order to avoid windfalls, or to improve a junior pilot's expectations.

The fellow I flew with this week was slotted by Nicolau behind an AWA pilot who was in grade school when my F/O was hired here.

This award simply defies rationality. It is bizarre. Its right out of Alice in Wonderland.

Piedmont,

Here is the problem that we have with that arguement. When you have two like carriers (in AGE) DOH would make sense as most would be close in time of service. Here the opposite is true. AWA began service in 1983 while AAA back in the 30's. It is completely unfair to use a system that would place many of our most senior pilots below a pilot furloughed for the past six years. What happened to you at AAA is unfortunate however we should not have to pay the price for that! I feel that the slotting method was more than fair and most, me included lost relative position as a result. DOH would have made us suffer the same fate that AAA pilots have suffered as a result of your companies poor management. I feel for and understand your plight however I don't need to suffer it as well to get the picture.

In the end, I do hope that we can get past this and make some real money.

 

[LCC_#1]

You know, the more I read here, the less sympathy I have with the East pilots. You guys essentially played DEAL OR NO DEAL by going to binding arbitration. You knew the odds. You threw the dice and lost. You must simply deal with your dissappointment, but to act like spoiled children in just wrong, especially given half of you wanted a similar decision made for Piedmont.

 

[SKY HIGH]

It doesn't matter what you think.

It is what it is "legally binding".

sky high states: Ever hear of LABOR UNREST...."think" about it.


only stating opinions