AAA ALPA Thread 9-14 to 9-21, East ALPA here

[hp_fa]

The US Airways MEC knows what it's doing with regard to the joint contract. The JNC can go into JNC talks and never agree to a new contract. And, the East pilots never have to agree to a joint contract because you cannot force them to vote "yes", if there ever is a TA.

Many people believe that today the EC washed their hands of the issue because they know USAPA will likely represent the East and West pilots in the not-to-distant future.

Today's action will likely result in more USAPA Authorization Cards/donations and increase the East pilots anger.

This battle is a long way from over and those who laugh last laugh best; therefore, the more I think about it the more I think today is a good day for the East pilots because now the East fence sitters will now certainly move to support USAPA.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

What fence sitters? You had been saying for many weeks that the vast majority of East folks had signed cards for USAPA, so why the concern about fence sitters? You have been prophesizing about gloom and doom for years. You always seem to have an enemy, the RC4, America West pilots, ad nausium. Do you have some kind of won/loss percentage on your predictions?

Unfortunately, it will be five days until I can see a response. I'm off to a wedding back east. But I have bookmarked this just to see what kind of response I get from you.

To the rest, play nice in the sandbox.

 

[nostradamus]

Nos and company: thanks for all your help in getting this matter behind us. I'm sure that had you gone about your business of intransigence and obfuscation in a cool, dispassionate, and calculating manner, then we AWA pilots would have been in for a long fight. However, you all chose the low road of threats, intimidation and extortion. In essence, that wasn't a very bright move because you would have done just fine by stringing the process out. However, you forced the situation and left Prater with no other choice than to forward the award, sit in JNC talks without you, and shove a CBA down your throats. Way to go. I thought we had seen the entire manuscript of "How Not to Negotiate" but I guess you had one more chapter to write.

Facts are not extortion, intimidation only works with the weak that can be intimidated. You consider yourself very wise for three years with AWA. This is not a role playing game you play obviously play on your computer a lot. You remind me of a teenager that rebels against you parents.

 

[unfortunatelyatusair]

The US Airways MEC knows what it's doing with regard to the joint contract. The JNC can go into JNC talks and never agree to a new contract. And, the East pilots never have to agree to a joint contract because you cannot force them to vote "yes", if there ever is a TA.

Many people believe that today the EC washed their hands of the issue because they know USAPA will likely represent the East and West pilots in the not-to-distant future.

Today's action will likely result in more USAPA Authorization Cards/donations and increase the East pilots anger.

This battle is a long way from over and those who laugh last laugh best; therefore, the more I think about it the more I think today is a good day for the East pilots because now the East fence sitters will now certainly move to support USAPA.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

The drive is complete and news will be coming shortly on that front. It will most certainly mean that there will be no single contract until this is resolved in a way acceptable to the East pilots, most likely in the form of a USAPA negotiated contract with all bidding in section 22 predicated of DOH.

There is a reason that no one involved including the AWA MEC has indicated there is a breach of the TA. If so, the agreement with the company would be null and would revert back to the respective contracts.

This would mean an end to the profit sharing, the 10% DC plan contribution, and the minimum fleet protection guarantee that reside for the AWA pilots in the TA, but not part of their contract. These items and protection exist in the EAST contract as bad as it is, separate from the TA. There is no successor ship language in the AWA scope section, while there is in the EAST contract and there is legal validity to the AWA pilot being placed under LOA 93 which predicates seniority based on DOH.

This is far from over and likely will be a bloody battle with ALPA playing school yard bully and getting down in the mud, but nothing new there and it should be no surprise to anyone. This is what ALPA wanted and as this plays out over the next several years the rest of the profession will suffer for ALPA's failures.

What color is the sky in your world?

ALPA will defend, and your pathetic attempt at USAPA has nowhere deep enough pockets to sustain this fight. You really expect pilots to shell out thousands of dollars for some vague and pointless attempt to change this? Especially considering the tens of thousands of dollars in raises they could get?

Every ALPA member should now be po'd at the easties. Because of their selfish child like behavior all ALPA members will be paying money to stop this crud.

Is it any wonder USAir has been a cesspool for so long?

 

[P51Pilot]

With the list being forwarded it guarantees that even a new union will be bound by the arbitrated award, which will only make the USAPA's road much more uncertain than it already was.

Not true. While the list may be used for invitation's to the company Christmas party, what is contained in section 22 of the contract will determine everything pertinent to seniority such as bidding. Any USAPA contract will contain a seniority section that stipulates all bidding is done in accordance with DOH. USAPA will not be bound to negotiate predicated on the Nicalou award nor will it be legally bound to defend it. It simply will be a paper with names and dates but have no purpose in the US Airways contract or US Airways pilots lives. Will this stance generate a DFR lawsuitut from the West pilots? Most likely but as with any DFR suit, they usually have no legs and the Supreme Court on more than one occasion has upheld the concept of DOH in seniority integration cases. This will be a long road and a bloody battle and sadly instigated by yet another of ALPA's failures.

 

[767jetz]

Above employee is a ALPA paid person who does not fly the line. He is only on the Usairways web site because the decisions that are made shortly, will benefit him, not the group as a whole.

767 jetz, with this distraction going on which you are contributing to being a representative of the Airline Pilots Association, do you consider Usairways a safe airline to fly at this time. This is safety, only a yes or no answer prudent.

nostradamus,

You certainly are a card!

Funny, I thought I was paying ALPA. At least that's what I thought the last time I looked at my pay stub. Maybe I should double check to see if they are paying me now!

I guess I also better call the crew desk and have them clear my calender since nostradamus has personally elected me to some union position where I will get paid to not fly. This is AWESOME! THANKS!!!

FYI, my LEC has asked me multiple times to accept local committee position, and I have tunred them down every time due to time constraints. (I need all the spare time I can find to parse words with you guys! ) Sorry, but my life is just too darn busy for union positions. I am quite happy attending meetings and supporting my elected reps when I can.

As for the safety issue, I would hope most pilots are able to turn the distractions off when they come to work. But you on the other hand, I'm not so sure of. Maybe you can PM me your name so that if I get on a US airplane I can make sure you are not in the cockpit. :unsure:

 

[Junebug172]

Not true. While the list may be used for invitation's to the company Christmas party, what is contained in section 22 of the contract will determine everything pertinent to seniority such as bidding. Any USAPA contract will contain a seniority section that stipulates all bidding is done in accordance with DOH. USAPA will not be bound to negotiate predicated on the Nicalou award nor will it be legally bound to defend it. It simply will be a paper with names and dates but have no purpose in the US Airways contract or US Airways pilots lives. Will this stance generate a DFR lawsuitut from the West pilots? Most likely but as with any DFR suit, they usually have no legs and the Supreme Court on more than one occasion has upheld the concept of DOH in seniority integration cases. This will be a long road and a bloody battle and sadly instigated by yet another of ALPA's failures.

Oh shut up.

No one's listening.

 

[P51Pilot]

What color is the sky in your world?

ALPA will defend, and your pathetic attempt at USAPA has nowhere deep enough pockets to sustain this fight. You really expect pilots to shell out thousands of dollars for some vague and pointless attempt to change this? Especially considering the tens of thousands of dollars in raises they could get?

Every ALPA member should now be po'd at the easties. Because of their selfish child like behavior all ALPA members will be paying money to stop this crud.

Is it any wonder USAir has been a cesspool for so long?

It is a very real possibility and very likely that ALPA will not be involved in this dispute in the next few months as they no longer exist as the CBU for either the West or the East pilots. USAPA will have no responsibility to defend the award, and when the time comes to sit down and negotiate a single contract, at the end of 2009, they are free to negotiate section 22 of the contract however they see fit.

I'm sure it will generate a DFR lawsuit. At some point a court will have to make a decision on that but there is as much legal precedence to show it will go USAPA's way as not. This isn't going to be bloodless or easy but that is where ALPA has left this mess. As far as how it affects other ALPA member's, well it is up for them to decide how this debacle came to be. As for me, I wouldn't wipe my a$$ with an ALPA constituion.

 

[nostradamus]

nostradamus,

You certainly are a card!

Funny, I thought I was paying ALPA. At least that's what I thought the last time I looked at my pay stub. Maybe I should double check to see if they are paying me now!

I guess I also better call the crew desk and have them clear my calender since nostradamus has personally elected me to some union position where I will get paid to not fly. This is AWESOME! THANKS!!!

FYI, my LEC has asked me multiple times to accept local committee position, and I have tunred them down every time due to time constraints. (I need all the spare time I can find to parse words with you guys! ) Sorry, but my life is just too darn busy for union positions. I am quite happy attending meetings and supporting my elected reps when I can.

As for the safety issue, I would hope most pilots are able to turn the distractions off when they come to work. But you on the other hand, I'm not so sure of. Maybe you can PM me your name so that if I get on a US airplane I can make sure you are not in the cockpit. :unsure:

I stand by my earlier statements which you choose to disregard. This is unsafe situation. You choose to do nothing.

 

[P51Pilot]

Oh shut up.

No one's listening.

Obviously you are.

 

[767jetz]

Not true. While the list may be used for invitation's to the company Christmas party, what is contained in section 22 of the contract will determine everything pertinent to seniority such as bidding. Any USAPA contract will contain a seniority section that stipulates all bidding is done in accordance with DOH.

Sorry, but I don't think that will fly. But even if it did, just remember that in addition to Christmas party invitations it will also be the legal seniority list that will be used in any future industry consolidation. If for example US eventually merges with NWA or DAL, a new CBA will eventually replace the one you speak of, and your "bidding by DOH" language will disappear.

I think a majority of your East pilots will see the futility of holding out hope for hair-brained schemes like this, and vote to accept immensely improved pay and work rules through the JNC.

I guess we'll see...

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Nosty,

You appear to be quite stressed and more than a little confused tonight. Perhaps you should call in sick tomorrow and try to relax a bit. And don't forget to get a doctor's note to send in to Lyle.

Give it a few days, you'll begin to feel better.

NLC

Should the FAA be investigating this distracting situation. You can call me a sore looser or disgruntled employee or you can call me the messenger. This situation is unsafe and needs to be addressed. Act now or make excuses later.

 

[767jetz]

I stand by my earlier statements which you choose to disregard. This is unsafe situation. You choose to do nothing.

Hey, if you are unsafe then you have a responsibility to use your sick time, or even seek help through your company's EAP. Every pilot has this responsibility. So I would assume that those who actually show up for flight duty have already determined that they can be safe. Doing otherwise would put the pilot in legal jeopardy and even subject them to certificate action by the FAA. Are you saying you would step into a cockpit with the intent of flying, knowing you are unsafe due to distractions caused by tonights news???

 

[P51Pilot]

Sorry, but I don't think that will fly. But even if it did, just remember that in addition to Christmas party invitations it will also be the legal seniority list that will be used in any future industry consolidation. If for example US eventually merges with NWA or DAL, a new CBA will eventually replace the one you speak of, and your "bidding by DOH" language will disappear.

I think a majority of your East pilots will see the futility of holding out hope for hair-brained schemes like this, and vote to accept immensely improved pay and work rules through the JNC.

I guess we'll see...

I guess we will, but as with any merger based on no principle it's a crap shoot and any attempt at integration will fall to Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's instead of ALPA merger policy. If it goes to arbitration, it will not be under ALPA merger policy and given the complexity of merging such companies and groups and the issues coming out of this, can you guarantee how an arbitrator will rule? Be careful what you wish for or threaten because ALPA has created a fine mess. Let's not forget that as in this case, that any seniority integration will likely be predicated upon a joint contract and depending on the issues as we see here, that can be a very long time. It would likely be one more whip saw scenario set by the legacy of ALPA failure.