AAA ALPA Thread 10/5 to 10/12

[EastUS]

Hey guys I thought this would be a nice crewroom poster...
View attachment 6517

A good one. I've been vainly advocating compromise from the start of my board time here. You can understand the inherent frustration with having, untill very recently, heard nothing but "Righteous Position"...and variations on "It's all your guys fault anyway", "You're sheep/chickens/whatever", "You won't ever get more than 200 cards" and "The time for negotiations has passed". I like the poster. At least it'd be someplace to start from ...Unless the dark area's where the holster top starts. :angry:

 

[Tiger 1050]

A good one. I've been vainly advocating compromise from the start of my board time here. You can understand the inherent frustration with having, untill very recently, heard nothing but "Righteous Position"...and variations on "It's all your guys fault anyway", "You're sheep/chickens/whatever", "You won't ever get more than 200 cards" and "The time for negotiations has passed". I like the poster. At least it'd be someplace to start from ...Unless the dark area's where the holster top starts. :angry:

Nah... No holsters. Just a little levity. Not much point in trying to persuade any of us concerning our beliefs so might as well make fun of the situation if possible...

 

[BoeingBoy]

However, are you sure a single employee can ask for a ruling?

Not hardly - I dredged that up from the dim recesses of my memory. But let me check.......

19.4 "Any organization or individual may file an application, supported by evidence of representation or a showing of interest (See Section 19.601-2), seeking a NMB determination that a single transportation system exists."

19.601 "Showing of Interest on the Single Transportation System
Incumbent organizations or individuals on the affected carrier(s) must submit evidence of representation or a showing of interest from at least thirty-five (35) percent of the employees in the craft or class. This evidence includes, but is not limited to, a seniority list, dues check-off list, a current collective bargaining agreement or a certification, or other indicia of current representation."

19.602 "If the organization or individual filing the application does not represent any of the employees covered by the application, the organization or individual must submit authorization cards from at least thirty-five (35) percent of the employees in the craft or class. If a single organization or individual represents all of the employees in a craft or class on the newly created single transportation system, an application filed by an intervening organization or individual must be supported by authorization cards from a majority (more than fifty (50) percent) of the employees in the craft or class. (See Section 3.601)."

Looks like under 19.602 USAPA could request a finding of single carrier status at the same time they file for an election. They would need authorization cards from 50%+1 of the total pilot group, not just the East.

Jim

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Jim,

Thanks. Good info to check out.

 

[Phoenix]

Until the west guys come out in masse to support USAPA then what would you expect? Lets see, allow a group to the website whose only purpose is to stop the new union. I don't think so. Send in a card and ask to join. Simple.

Send in a card. Exactly.

AWA pilots did not start USAPA so why should they expect to be a part of it if they don't send in a card. Who knows, the NMB may decide that AWA pilots are seperate and unaffected by USAPA anyway.

 

[P51Pilot]

10-08-07

Brother Prater,



In response to your most recent missive, the pilots of US Airways certainly deserved more than to merely read your views; indeed, these career dues-paying members should have been heard. They approached you on several occasions, expected you to listen and then provide answers from those custodians of ALPA National Policy. To date, neither you nor your predecessor has provided a single answer which would defend the US Airways Pilots careers - not to mention their retirements.



As you know, part of ALPA Merger policy is the accomplishment of a merged contract. The ability of ALPA as an agent to deliver a mutually acceptable legal Joint Contract with the existing Nicolau Award is illusive. You may find it useful to review your earlier EC resolutions.



Please be more concise as to your charges against us with regards to our Constitution and By-Laws. You emphatically state that ‘prompt and corrective action is required’ by our MEC to comply with the C&BL. However, what is actually transpiring is not ours, but the Association’s lack of compliance with the Constitution and By-Laws. The most recent example is your failure to prosecute our Grievances/Disputes.



May we be so bold to remind you of your oath to uphold faithfully our Associations Constitution and By-Laws? Specifically, as spelled out in Article I section 6 B (5) “and to settle promptly disputes and grievances which may arise between such members and their employers.†In addition, Article III Section 4 B (1) of our C&BL charges the Chairman of a Local Council with the expeditious processing of complaints and grievances on behalf of his members. We upheld our part of the Constitution and By Laws, how about you? You may want to have your Attorneys consult the Railway Labor Act for more information regarding expeditious dispute resolution on behalf of members before you make accusations against your brothers.



Some other Constitutional failures by the Association:



1. Failure to prosecute a Temporary Restraining Order on behalf of the AAA MEC/Pilots with regards to the single FAA Certificate.



2. Allowing continued JNC (Joint) negotiations with our employer without direct representation from the AAA Negotiating Committee on behalf of AAA Pilots. (Absent Joint participation)



3. Bruce York’s negotiations with our employer regarding AAA CBA Section 1 (Scope) with relation to a Flow-Thru Agreement, without the knowledge or approval from AAA MEC.



4. Incompetence or possible manipulation by the Association of the Pilots in Bad Standing Lists and Monthly Domicile Rosters.



5. Violation of Article I section 6 B (6): “To establish fair rates of compensation, maximum hours of employment, and uniform principles of seniority for members of the Association, and to seek the adoption and perpetuation thereof.†(Parity, Nicolau, MDA)



6. Failure of ALPA’s E&FA to properly account for valuation.



7. Failure of ALPA Approved Investment Banker, Glanzer and Company, to properly evaluate company assets.



As far as our efforts to fend off USAPA, no amount of effort by the US Airways MEC could ever overcome the polarizing effect your misguided actions and current strategy has had in turning the AAA pilots against the Association, and in record breaking time at that. You and your advisors, working with a pliable ALPA policy, have created the very likelihood of the decertification which you now want us to fight. Yet, somehow, you are attempting to place the blame with someone else. Whose advice are you following?



What you have asked of us will put us in conflict with our representational responsibilities. Please don’t load-shed the personal responsibility you have for the Association’s part in the current situation!



Your warning to us with regards to “truly detrimental consequences†to the Association is hypocrisy at its finest. Instead of only considering National’s interests, have you and your advisors considered the truly detrimental consequences to the US Airways Pilots? Or perhaps the precedent this has on other members of the Association down the road? We have. This is exactly the reason we continue to advocate for our members – the US Airways pilots – at the LEC, MEC, and National level within the purview of our Association’s Constitution and By-Laws.



Once again, please be specific as to our obligations in which you claim we have not complied. Where does the authority lie in the C&BL which gives you the right to dictate your will onto our MEC and circumvent our Association’s democratic process? Have you heard of the Landrum-Griffin Act, specifically the restrictions on the power of unions to put subordinate bodies in trusteeship? You may want to ask the individuals responsible for your letter for guidance. I’m sure they are familiar.



There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that the Rice Committee is a misappropriation of Association’s funds, not to mention the potential for a conflict of interest between the members employed by United Airlines. How is it that our Council 41 members lose all rights and privileges upon reaching age 60, but yet a certain member of the Committee continues to have standing? The Committee has yet to produce one substantive result or alternative to an Award that does not comply with Fair and Equitable. We are requesting a full prompt accounting of the Association expenses related to all activities of the Rice Committee including phone records.



Have your advisors made you aware there is ongoing litigation over the Nicolau “Award?†We find it prudent to wait for the court orders so as not to prejudice our case. Once again, anything less would be a failure to properly represent our pilots. After all, isn’t this the primary obligation of a union?



Towards the end of your letter you request our unreserved support of continued efforts to resolve all collective bargaining and seniority issues within the Association. You are not being consistent with your thoughts and demands. In paragraph 6, you request a resolution from us recognizing the seniority “Awardâ€. Well, which is it? Is there a Seniority issue which needs to be resolved or not? Or was this merely your “Freudian Slip?â€



The goals you continually espouse of “very significant improvement in pay, benefits, and career protection to all US Airways Pilots†are unattainable in light of the Nicolau Award and the Association’s historic ‘help’. Repeating them endlessly will not make them happen. Pouring salt in a wound only serves to aggravate the pain. I would have thought you knew this having fought for ‘fair and equitable’ before. Why is it different for the US Airways pilots than it was for you, John? Or are you treating this as somebody else’s fight?



This is a very ugly road you have chosen. You have clearly elevated this issue beyond that of a consensual agreement. Our performing due diligence will require the assistance of outside legal counsel to properly represent our pilots.



What will be the result when the rest of the Membership discovers ALPA Policy, not just Merger Policy, is really only a process with no consideration as to the meaning of words contain within?



Therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.





Fraternally,









Chairman Council 41








Vice Chairman Council 41

 

[Busdrvr]

Therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Now THAT'S telling him!!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

10-08-07
Brother Prater,


Chairman Council 41
Vice Chairman Council 41

Well, that was interesting. Let the campaign begin. Even before we have an election.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

10-08-07

7. Failure of ALPA Approved Investment Banker, Glanzer and Company, to properly evaluate company assets.

After reading several posts concerning the evaluation of the mileage programs at other carriers, I wonder how the ALPA professional bankers valued dividend miles? Ooops that's not an asset.

 

[flynomore]

After reading several posts concerning the evaluation of the mileage programs at other carriers, I wonder how the ALPA professional bankers valued dividend miles? Ooops that's not an asset.

===========================================================

Until the shareholder from Iceland dinged AMR, it has always been shown as a liability. I don't think that Glanzer and his boys are to blame for lacking the foresight that many didn't have.

Love or hate him, Crandall is a genius for starting this.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Hey EastUS here's another... Don't take it personally...

View attachment 6525

 

[Cactus737]

I will always try to give you answers that I know. But my opinions are my own and may not be what you're looking for.

Understood and appreciated.

Actually, you haven't proven anything. Other than the fact your only goal is to gain access to an organization to derail its mission. You haven't denied that either.

It's simple really. USAPA is asking for West support, and I've questioned USAPA's interest in supporting West pilots. I wouldn't feel the need to derail USAPA's mission if I were convinced that USAPA weren't out to hose me. Similarly, you wouldn't feel the need to find new union representation if you were convinced that ALPA was going to do a better job than USAPA.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

It's simple really. USAPA is asking for West support, and I've questioned USAPA's interest in supporting West pilots. I wouldn't feel the need to derail USAPA's mission if I were convinced that USAPA weren't out to hose me. Similarly, you wouldn't feel the need to find new union representation if you were convinced that ALPA was going to do a better job than USAPA.

I can answer part of that by saying I was convinced many years ago that ALPA needed to go. Won't go into all the reasons as I've posted many of them already. So, for me, there is nothing ALPA could do right now or anything in the future to convince me of the need to keep them around. So far it has been the most expensive magazine known to man. And about to get even more expensive if they stay on the property.

In the hopes of getting support from the west we have to ask. Not expecting any but trying anyway. You already know a basic tenet in the Constitution and ByLaws of USAPA. All of it has been discussed before over and over and would be a deal breaker for you personally. Under ALPA it's a deal breaker for me. So therein lies the conflict. The only difference for now is the balance of power. We would be foolish to let this opportunity slip away.

Are you going to get hosed? Hope not if USAPA wants to have any long lasting longevity.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI.October 8, 2007
USAPA to Establish National Headquarters in Charlotte
Pilots Union HQ site near center of national pilot population


Charlotte, NC--(BUSINESS WIRE)--The US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA) announced today it will locate its National headquarters in Charlotte, NC.

“USAPA’s decision to locate its headquarters in Charlotte is based upon several factors, the size of the local pilot population and favorable costs of operation were the dominant criteria,â€￾ said Stephen Bradford, USAPA’s President and a US Airways (NYSE: LCC - News) Airbus 320 pilot. “Other factors favoring Charlotte were its fair weather, ease of air access and its placement near the center of mass of our nationwide pilot population.â€￾

USAPA intends to operate satellite offices in some of its other crew bases to support specific functions related to its representation of the US Airways pilots.

USAPA is in the midst of a campaign to represent the US Airways as their new labor union. The National Mediation Board (NMB) requires that 50% of eligible pilots, plus one, sign forms requesting replacement of the existing bargaining agent. During the follow-on election a simple majority of voting pilots will determine whether the US Airways pilots will again be represented by a labor union. USAPA will file its application with the NMB later this month. USAPA expects to become the new collective bargaining agent for the US Airways pilots during the first quarter of 2008.

USAPA is the new union created to represent the interests of US Airways Pilots “from the pilot up.â€￾ USAPA has been specifically designed to deliver superior representation for all US Airways pilots. Because USAPA represents only US Airways pilots, the conflicts of interest associated with a large national association are avoided. American Airlines pilots, previously affiliated with ALPA, were assisted in their departure from the association by the same law firm assisting the US Airways pilots today.

For additional information about USAPA, please visit www.USAirlinePilots.org or contact us at [email protected].

 

[AAA73Pilot]

To Cactus737


For the West...
"or.... why in the heck would a West pilot support USAPA?"



To our West Brothers and Sisters:

We doubt if USAPA is ever going to change your opinion on removing ALPA as the CBA on our combined properties, but whether you believe it or not, the reality is that a representation election is coming. The following is not to elicit your support but to give you a few things to think about. Ask yourself not just what ALPA has done for you since 1994, ask what ALPA has done to you? Alternatively, quoting my friend (removed) as he addressed John Prater in person, "the question is not 'what has ALPA done for us lately?' it's 'what has ALPA done for us ever ?' "

You might ask why I, as a 21-year US Airways employee, would have any insight into AWA? The answer is from personal experience. I was living in PHX when AWA was formed, and in-fact seriously considered working there. (Right or wrong, I turned down an interview at AWA to accept employment at [then] USAir.) I have therefore followed news at AWA longer than many of you have worked there. I still have a few good friends at AWA who have related their ALPA experiences to me over the years. My best friend is an AWA Captain and was Best Man in my wedding, and I am the step-son of (removed), who was AWA’s manager of crew scheduling for about 5 years and manager of Labor Relations for about 4 years. Finally, I have for some time been trying to gain insight as to the grievance the West pilots have with ALPA, and why you too started a decertification movement (led as I'm sure you know, by your current MEC Chairman who now states that ALPA is a good deal for the West). I have then (I hope) gained the desired insight.

From what I understand, ALPA has not done all that much good for AWA pilots and ALPA’s track record proves it. Few AWA pilots know the details behind your first contract in 1995. Things started off with Jerry Glass literally teaching AWA negotiators how to negotiate against him. Yes, as far back as the early 1990s, through an arrangement with ALPA and the AFL-CIO, Jerry Glass taught courses at the George Meany Center for Labor Studies. Mr. Glass sized up the strengths and weaknesses of the four original AWA negotiators while teaching them how to negotiate. That made for very easy pickings for negotiations that lasted less than six months.

ALPA wanted your first negotiations concluded quickly. Until you had a contract, ALPA couldn’t collect union dues. ALPA was also concerned about the company threat of a merger with then non-union Continental. Non-union also meant no dues. (If you don't think that much of National's actions now revolve around protecting $11.2M/yr in dues, you ought to give it some more thought; it certainly doesn't revolve around what's best for the pilots, East or West!) To wrap things up quickly and secretly, ALPA convinced two of your negotiators to join them and the company in negotiating outside of Phoenix in a secret location that your MEC didn’t even know about.

What you ended up with was a contract that was hastily put together. You voted on a five page summary and most of the snail-mail ballots were already mailed in before you even had a rough draft. ALPA President Randy Babbitt declared it "the best first contract in ALPA history." One of your negotiators, Dale Cook, refused to sign it or show up for the ceremony. How right he turned out to be. Just three months later, I understand that you recalled and removed your Vice Chairman from office and almost removed your Chairman as well.

The hastily written and often contradictory language in this "best first contract in ALPA history" created over 800 grievances that (removed) dealt with over a five year period. There were very few wins, because as (removed) used to say, “There’s a reason the contract cover is gray.†But even when you had a sure win, ALPA chose to negotiate rather than go to arbitration. The company dodged a major bullet when ALPA’s Herndon staff settled your “Great Sick-out†grievance for about $500 and without precedent. That grievance was settled 30 minutes prior to an arbitration hearing.

ALPA then convinced you to be their guinea pig and negotiate your second contract using IBB. After 16 months of negotiations, with little to show for the effort other than writing prisoner of war and internment language, 9-11 occurred. So instead of having the leverage to trade away concessions, you ended up negotiating under the shadow of the ATSB loans. ALPA once again called the shots. After the second TA was voted down, ALPA violated your own MEC resolution and stuffed a third TA down your throats.

Before you think that the recent EC resolutions were an example of ALPA fairness, look back to July 2005, when ALPA passed a resolution that allowed the East to have equal access to MCF money for merger-related purposes, even though Section 45 specifically prohibited it. That would have stayed under the radar and you would have never known if one of your pilots hadn’t stumbled across it.

I know most, if not nearly all of you believe USAPA is all about Nicolau; nothing could be further from the truth. While it is true that the Nicolau award was the straw that broke the back of the East pilots, we have for many years realized that we would be better off on our own than with a national "association" with conflicting interests and primarily concerned with dues money. This was demonstrated years ago by our first decertification movement; regretfully one that did not come to fruition. Dozens of USAPA volunteers have worked tirelessly (actually, that's wrong, I'm dog tired) to create from the pilot up, a brand new union. We have looked at everything that has ticked us off over the years, and we have worked to create a union that does things better, more efficiently, and from beginning to end, with nothing but the pilots in mind. I will tell you that in early meetings there were smiles in the room when we realized (after grappling with a problem) that we could do anything we wanted, anything the pilots wanted; we weren't stuck with "what National wants." It really is liberating once you start thinking 'outside the Herndon box,' I urge you to give it a try.

It seems that escaping the iron grip of ALPA is akin to escaping a bad marriage - easier said than done. Regretfully, after nearly a year, an equally dedicated and selfless group at UAL (the PEARL group) has thrown in the towel. Quoting one of their founders in an email to me, "These guys love to whine, but when you put a ballot in their hands or ask them to remove their ALPA pin and replace it with a UPA pin, they simply lacked the courage." Is that you?

He continued, "Now we're all going to get what we deserve with ALPA's amateur negotiators trying to go toe-to-toe with hired guns and the meanest mgmt in the industry. It's only going to get worse here. With 6% inflation and another 4 yrs before we actually have a new contract, we'll take another 25% pay cut--with little chance that ALPA can get anything like a 25%+ pay raise. Our standard of living now is probably higher than it will be AFTER our next contract. And the pilots here are playing ostrich and won't wake up to any of this til after they all vote yes and it's too late." Sound a bit familiar? Even probable? Scary, eh? THAT is why USAPA exists, not because of Nicolau. Please read the following a couple of times, slowly, if the Nicolau award was put into effect today, the decertification movement would continue - it's not all about Nicolau; it's all about getting rid of ALPA.

So... yes we disagree on the award, but you'd be surprised about how much we do agree on when it comes to ALPA; we'll work the rest out. (You'd also be surprised at how much time is spent in USAPA meetings and discussions on how the West pilots can, and should, be protected.)

Finally, I'll ask you again the same question my friend (removed) asked Prater, "What has ALPA done for (you) ever?"

Fraternally,

(removed)
Chairman / USAPA Communications