AAA ALPA Thread 10/5 to 10/12

[P51Pilot]

So too did the arbitrator whose decision y'all agreed to abide by.

Agreed, or dictated by ALPA merger policy. Or guidelines? It's hard to remember or distinguish because some of it seems to be mandatory and some of it is guidelines. Maybe it was all policy and then because of political expediency only some of it is policy now or tough decisions and action are something you see from an union that provides advocacy for its professionals. Not a corrupt organization with an oligarchy of masters, career hacks, and plethora of attorneys engaged in Gestapto tactics of control and domination. Well this mess is what you get with this situation when ALPA attorney's whisper into Praeter's ear and all the ALPA hacks self interest take over as domination, the money train and strands of power are threatened.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Big campaign promise, fella. If a union sent every resolution to the pilot group for a vote business would grind to a halt. USAPA may be structured differently but the net effect is the same. If it was such a great idea how come neither the Teamsters, APA, SWAPA, UPS union, nor Air Tran union do it that way?

The reason? Centralized power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Thats why. We don't want any part of it. The virtual voting mechanism under development will let all pilots participate conveniently and expeditiously. Under the Bill of Rights major issues will require a super majority to pass. Other issues may only take a simple majority, or may only take the senate (name hasn't been chosen yet). But the core issues affecting pay, benefits, working conditions or if you will, quality of life issues will require a vote by the pilots.

By trying to force concessions around the Nicolau Award.You'll excuse me if I chuckle a bit at that, but for the past twelve months or so doing what's in your best interest hasn't been your forte. Hint: you're losing every battle for a reason.

Hint back....USAPA has only been around since June. We haven't lost anything. But if you're referring to the MEC, now that's a different story. Under ALPA and Nic intact as published will get you nothing. No east pilot would ever pass the TA in the foreseable future. And no amount of money is worth selling out a principle.

So too did the arbitrator whose decision y'all agreed to abide by.

Long debated. Each sides position has not and will not change. Since both MEC's are polarized, the only chance to bring this together is some external event. I believe a new union with a fundamental foundation of principles, not "guidelines" has the best chance to unify this group.

 

[Cactus737]

Cute letter from ST, I was wondering if he was going to be dumb enough to speak up. I knew that ST was involved with USAPA, but I didn't speak up about it because I wanted to keep the debate focused on the issues instead of the players, but since he opened Pandora's Box:

RT wasn't well thought of here by pilots or other employee groups. She spent years executing Franke-style anti-labor tactics and did far more to keep AWA pilots down than ALPA ever did. The only thing she ever did that AWA pilots was respected was leave the company.

Just imagine if Wolf's son wrote you guys a letter encouraging you to stick with ALPA. Brilliant - nice try.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Cute letter from ST,

You can find it on the USAPA website. Been there for awhile.

 

[zflygrl]

Yeah, I'm sure he could answer me since "Death is just a state of mind".

Yes ....but you still have to dig him up first...then comes the questions. <_<

 

[zflygrl]

AAA73pilot..............you have way to much time on your hands. And way to much anger......and way to much confidence. Remember David brought down Goliath with just a sling and a stone....OH!! wait a minute you called yourself Beast 1.....so your God is the Devil. :ninja:

 

[P51Pilot]

AAA73pilot..............you have way to much time on your hands. And way to much anger......and way to much confidence. Remember David brought down Goliath with just a sling and a stone....OH!! wait a minute you called yourself Beast 1.....so your God is the Devil. :ninja:

More righteous indignation from the perspective of thieves. :down:

 

[AAA73Pilot]

RT wasn't well thought of here by pilots or other employee groups. She spent years executing Franke-style anti-labor tactics and did far more to keep AWA pilots down than ALPA ever did. The only thing she ever did that AWA pilots was respected was leave the company.

Since I wasn't there I wouldn't know. So it really doesn't matter if she was liked or disliked. Was she acting on her own or at the behest of her immediate superiors? Therefore, are the core facts correct? I don't know. Enlighten me. So if she was that bad or good depending on your point of view, wonder why she still isn't there today? Just curious.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

AAA73pilot..............you have way to much time on your hands. And way to much anger......and way to much confidence. Remember David brought down Goliath with just a sling and a stone....OH!! wait a minute you called yourself Beast 1.....

I wish I did have too much time. Hope you mean my David (USAPA) against Goliath (ALPA) I like the ending. Anger? Mois? Honey I haven't been angry in a long time. It wastes way to much energy. Your reply about confidence is most reassuring. Thank You. I appreciate the complement. However if I'm part of the, what did you say? beasties was it? Then I needed a new identity. So beast 1 it is for you only. Have a good evening.

 

[traderjake]

I'ld be wrong to want something for nothing, but lottery tickets do weird things to a person's mind. :huh:

You're wrong and you're the one who wants something for nothing.

You want to put a reserve F/O ahead of a line holding Captain.

You want to put a someone with no job ahead of a working pilot.

You want to furlough half of West pilots before the first East pilot.

Any sane person can see the obsurdity of the East position. The arbitrator saw it. ALPA sees it. If this goes to court the judge will see it.

Greed and stupidity does weird things to a person's mind.

 

[P51Pilot]

You're wrong and you're the one who wants something for nothing.


No, he wants the career progression, that his airline and its routes and flying and its pilot groups attrition brought to the table nothing more. The career flying and attrition preserved by the sacrifice of his pay, work rules and benefit, retirement, furlough?, etc.

You want to put a reserve F/O ahead of a line holding Captain.

If the working Captain is protected by a fence and condition, so what? He has what he had before the merger and his future is what it would have been. Why should he expect more?

You want to put a someone with no job ahead of a working pilot.


Same as above


You want to furlough half of West pilots before the first East pilot.

Where did he say that but again that can be handled by a condition for a period of time, or a fence. If the downsizing come from the less profitable and it happens to be the west, well then that was what that airline brought to the merger.

Any sane person can see the obsurdity of the East position. The arbitrator saw it. ALPA sees it. If this goes to court the judge will see it.



Lets not forget that for years that US Airways was on the forefront of pay, work rules, scope, retirement's, benefits, etc., while ALPA pilot groups like AWA low balled the industry in pay and benefits, or DAL and CAL with scope and a flood of regional jets at low wages damaged all the things pilots hold dear. Of course now that a pilot group is standing up and might threaten the cash machine that ALPA has become, and the career hacks in a "volunteer" upside down pyramid organization are threatened, ALPA wants the East pilot group to roll over so they can have the money but none of the responsibility, and are more than willing to let a group ride in and steal what was preserved by the sacrifice of others, a sacrifice created by its failed mission, polices, corrupt practices and greed. Right or wrong has no bearing on lack of action because it boils down to Delta, United, CAL, and NWA pilot groups now being insulated in a potential merger with US Airways under the Nicalou award.


Greed and stupidity does weird things to a person's mind.


Yeah, it makes think they can steal another person's career. Sort of what some of that group already did to Wien or Ansett.

 

[Phoenix]

Greed and stupidity does weird things to a person's mind.

How original. I already said that.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Under the Bill of Rights major issues will require a super majority to pass.

Interestingly, our MEC passed a resolution for super-majority votes on major issues. It's officially awaiting National's ruling on it's legality under the Bylaws. In any case, USAPA's planned structure sounds like a grand experiment. The thing is, if a pilot group is closely divided on an issue the organization of the union won't matter. Pilots will always complain.

Hint back....USAPA has only been around since June. We haven't lost anything. But if you're referring to the MEC, now that's a different story.

Actually, I was referring to the East pilot group as a whole. Despite unconscionable blunders by your MEC (remember the transcripts!) there haven't been any recall attempts. This leads me to believe that your MEC is, in fact, acting per your collective desires and thus their failures (perceived or real) are YOUR failures to act rationally. This leads me to conclude that USAPA, if it succeeds, will simply continue in the same vein as the AAA MEC and continue to shoot its own foot.

No east pilot would ever pass the TA in the foreseable future.

As I repeatedly told USA320pilot, PROVE IT! Let the JNC negotiate a TA and put it out to vote. Since you know you're right you have nothing to worry about, right?

And no amount of money is worth selling out a principle.

Not all principles are worth defending.

Since both MEC's are polarized, the only chance to bring this together is some external event.

This I agree on, however, it I suspect that event won't be USAPA.

I believe a new union with a fundamental foundation of principles, not "guidelines" has the best chance to unify this group.

Can unity be forced?

 

[N924PS]

You're wrong and you're the one who wants something for nothing.
No, he wants the career progression, that his airline and its routes and flying and its pilot groups attrition brought to the table nothing more. The career flying and attrition preserved by the sacrifice of his pay, work rules and benefit, retirement, furlough?, etc.

You want to put a reserve F/O ahead of a line holding Captain.

If the working Captain is protected by a fence and condition, so what? He has what he had before the merger and his future is what it would have been. Why should he expect more?

You want to put a someone with no job ahead of a working pilot.
Same as above

You just made a pretty good case for the West. The East has what they had before the merger, and their future is what it would have been. Why should he expect more?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

This I agree on, however, it I suspect that event won't be USAPA.

Then how do you propose the stalemate end? Under the fine leadership of ALPA and its now guidelines? Sorry, not going to happen there. At least with a new union you can have a chance. Right now, there is none.