AAA ALPA Thread 10/12 to 10/18

[EastUS]

So while the AWA guys are suing USAPA over Nic and you also want to threaten a strike, the money comes from where?
You must like paying assessments, because you will be paying them year out.

Firstly; at least an even marginally unified group might actually have some credibility. Imagine Alpo threatening any action? The laughter from airline managements would be heard worldwide. As for any possible payments?..Have you ever wondered about what you pay for with Alpo? It's a cute magazine...and the managing editor of it even gets over, I believe it's 133K a year of your/our money just to oversee that magnificent monthly prose, replete with covers of regional pilots.

Addendum: I see UAL's token Alpo boy lurking about. Yo! 767jetz!..would you be so very kind as to assauge any/all concerns present by explaining the kind and gentle approach your group intends to take with the US/AWA bunch if our happy families are to possibly ever merge with you guys if we're both Alpo? I'm sure that, as a vocal proponent of Alpo, you can allay any fears this group has by assuring all present that you guys would/will have zero problems with letting...say...an AWA three-five year guy who's an instant Captain via Nicolau take your seat for example?

 

[AAA#6]

AAA#6

Southwest was not always the bohemoth they are today and they did quite well with their in-house union. The challenge for USAPA will not be to convince AAA pilots of the need to replace ALPA, I think most of us in the East have already reached that conclusion, but to convince both East and West that no worthwhile change ever happened without some risk and uncertainty.

It is the fence sitters and the fearful, such as yourself - who hold to the mantra that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't - who need to be persuaded that the time for ALPA on this property is at an end.

Let's be clear. There is no fence sitting. I vote for the one that is best for me and my family. Period. I believe USAPA will cost me more in dollars and time than ALPA. USAPA is about the Nic award, nothing else.

You forget one thing with all these comparisons. Southwest has always been one culture (other than a handful of Muse pilots from the very early days). With US we have two different cultures. WN does well because they have new hires indoctrinated into the WN lifestyle, thus into the pilot association. One culture. As for the Morris guys they are just thankful to get on with a real airline with real pay, so I don't think there was a better culture at Morris.

 

[N924PS]

AAA#6

Southwest was not always the bohemoth they are today and they did quite well with their in-house union. The challenge for USAPA will not be to convince AAA pilots of the need to replace ALPA, I think most of us in the East have already reached that conclusion, but to convince both East and West that no worthwhile change ever happened without some risk and uncertainty.

It is the fence sitters and the fearful, such as yourself - who hold to the mantra that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't - who need to be persuaded that the time for ALPA on this property is at an end.

So far, USAPA has done little if anything, to embrace the West Pilots. And that is the key to the success of USAPA. They must convince the West Pilots changing union affiliation is best for both pilot groups.

Unfortunately, because HP pilots are excluded from all but the public section of the USAPA website, the West pilots don't have a warm, fuzzy feeling about what USAPA can do for them.

Should pilots within 5 years of retirement, whether a CAPT or F/O, sign on to a union with limited funding, limited expertise, that will not realize a new collective bargaining agreement prior to their retirement? Should these individuals forgo the last raise they will ever see in their careers, which in some cases could be hundreds of thousands dollars, to support this cause, inspired by the Nicolau award?

So far USAPA has not made a compelling case that worthwhile change will be the result of the risk and uncertainty you describe, for either pilot group.

 

[Piedmont1984]

AAA#6 and N924PS

I believe we can and should move one more step forward without having to risk anything, and that is to hold a NMB election, let ALPA and USAPA make their cases, and allow the pilot group to decide.

 

[N924PS]

AAA#6 and N924PS

I believe we can and should move one more step forward without having to risk anything, and that is to hold a NMB election, let ALPA and USAPA make their cases, and allow the pilot group to decide.

That NMB election is just around the corner, according to the latest from USAPA.

 

[AAA#6]

Firstly; at least a unified group might actually have some credibility. Imagine Alpo threatening any action? The laughter from airline managements would be heard worldwide. As for any possible payments?..Have you ever wondered about what you pay for with Alpo? It's a cute magazine...and the managing editor of it even gets over, I believe it's 133K a year of your/our money just to oversee that magnificent monthly prose, replete with covers of regional pilots.

I totally agree, ALPA is out of control. I have seen the payroll sheet of lots of people that make more than us. It's horrible.

Nobody has answered the big question. Everyone is avoiding it. And we all know the reason why.

The East has to admit USAPA is about the Nic award. If it were about money, then I put my cards on the JNC. They have most of the process complete and all of us would see better pay and lifestyle. But this isn't about money, this is about Nic. That is why USAPA is a stupid idea. It is an emotional based response for AAA leaders not managing our expectations.

You can force the majority on the AWA guys, but that is as far as the success will go. So what will we have:
A majority that is happy they won.
A majority that can't really get ahead because the other half will be emotional and bitter and will basically resign on participating.
About 1900 pilots from West will surely not want to pay their share of dues, thus USAPA is supported mostly by East.
We start all over on contract talks. Wait 4-5 years while being exposed to a possible merger or wait even better a downturn in the economy.
We will have no protection from merger.
We get into lawsuites with AWA ALPA. They have ALPA pockets who will make sure USAPA goes down. In other words they can draw it out or make USAPA settle due to lack of cash.
We get assesments because the union can't afford the lawsuits.

This sounds like a great ROI :down:

How much does USAPA have in the bank? Are they willing to show the voters the bank statement? Just curious. I mean if it is a real pilots union lets have some transparency and
let off on the disinformation tactics.

 

[P51Pilot]

So while the AWA guys are suing USAPA over Nic and you also want to threaten a strike, the money comes from where?
You must like paying assessments, because you will be paying them year out.

I think you missed my point. If you think your pay or work conditions will improve with ALPA, which now has no and will never have any leverage at US Airways, you are sadly mistaken. Management will laugh at any tough stand they might take in negotiations, because a group that divided will have no credibility. So two choices for many, support a losing strategy(ALPA) and sale out your seniority for short term gains, or fight to preserve your seniority and let the chips fall where they may.

Looking at ALPA's past, they would be just stupid enough to maneuver US Airways into some kind of stand for a contract on behalf of their real beneficiaris(UAL, CAL, DAL, NWA) not on behalf of the US Airways pilots. They obviously don't care what the inequity of the Nicalou award has done and wouldn't care that the group is divided and would have no chance of any success with taking it down to the wire. Can you imagine if negotiations made it through mediation and a cooling off period and Management called the bluff with the current state of affairs? It probably would be current contract minus and if this group was stupid enough to strike it wouldn't be as pretty as CAL in 1983. Hell, instead of strike breakers crossing the line with heads hung in shame, you would have them spitting on the ALPA signs on the way through it.

If the airline enters a downturn with St. Nic in place, it won't be good. More than half the people would have a full pay to the last day mentality, who could blame them if their seniority is gone, and if it got bad enough to another CH 11 and an imposed contract, there would be no leverage to stop it. A strike would be the end of the union.

CAL floundered for a decade and survived only because of luck. Economic prosperity from 1996-2000 and a CEO who knew how to run an airline for business passengers and was willing to hand out some goodies. If there hadn't been such a boom period for the airline and the right man for the job, they would have been toast. History predicts the economic cycle will be turning down in the near future, and given the state of affairs at this airline and the hostility that will continue and fester under the unfairness of Nicalou, good luck to US Airways.

 

[EastUS]

Nobody has answered the big question. Everyone is avoiding it. And we all know the reason why.

The East has to admit USAPA is about the Nic award. If it were about money, then I put my cards on the JNC.

No question that Nic's the catalyst, but; It's not my main thing in truth. I can't speak for others. We've all seen the "career" and 'lifestyle" go down the drain for the last 20+ years under Alpo. I'm very nearly done with this game myself, but I'd love nothing more than to see something put in place that might actually make for some possiblity of a respectable future for those following. Flying's one of the truly greatest things in the world to do, and not everyone can do it. It should, as it once was, be respected and well compensated. There are muni bus drivers that now make better wages than many pilots. Alpo's a joke, and will merely oversee continued deterioration, while lining their own pockets and lifestyles....period.

 

[AAA#6]

I think you missed my point. If you think your pay or work conditions will improve with ALPA, which now has no and will never have any leverage at US Airways, you are sadly mistaken. Management will laugh at any tough stand they might take in negotiations, because a group that divided will have no credibility. So two choices for many, support a losing strategy(ALPA) and sale out your seniority for short term gains, or fight to preserve your seniority and let the chips fall where they may.

Are you saying USAPA will be happy and cheery and not divided? :unsure:

Well at least you admit USAPA is about Nic and not the money. I appreciate your honesty, you surely have the right to say your opinion.

 

[AAA#6]

No question that Nic's the catalyst, but; It's not my main thing in truth. I can't speak for others. We've all seen the "career" and 'lifestyle" go down the drain for the last 20+ years under Alpo. I'm very nearly done with this game myself, but I'd love nothing more than to see something put in place that might actually make for some possiblity of a respectable future for those following. Flying's one of the truly greatest things in the world to do, and not everyone can do it. It should, as it once was, be respected and well compensated. There are muni bus drivers that now make better wages than many pilots. Alpo's a joke, and will merely oversee continued deterioration, while lining their own pockets and lifestyles....period.

That's true. Its the best job when the cockpit door is closed. Luckily it is still fun for me.

 

[autofixer]

That's true. Its the best job when the cockpit door is closed. Luckily it is still fun for me.

And even that won't be fun anymore thanks to Ole St. Nic.

 

[luvn737s]

No question that Nic's the catalyst, but; It's not my main thing in truth. I can't speak for others. We've all seen the "career" and 'lifestyle" go down the drain for the last 20+ years under Alpo. I'm very nearly done with this game myself, but I'd love nothing more than to see something put in place that might actually make for some possiblity of a respectable future for those following.

Translation: I'm outta here, but who cares if the knee-jerk reactions of the USAPA crowd salt the earth for those who come after me. By the time the real bills come due for these misguided actions, I'll be long gone sipping something cool on the beach.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I see....so..the only proper solution is to attempt nothing new, or different, wallow in despair, and continue to watch the decline of the profession?

Pretty much! Actually I have been reading people's gripes about ALPA and it seems the anger centers mostly on the money. Whether people get paid too much or get too much flight pay loss seems like a pretty trivial complaint overall. The majority of complaints also seem to center on losing touch with pilot needs. Only a few in ALPA are on full time flight pay loss (MEC officers) and in senior positions in Washington (officers). Line pilots currently run the vast majority of ALPA functions (Capt and F/O reps and committee volunteers) on their days off. So what I'm hearing is that pilots do not trust their own and having to do the bulk of the work on one's days off isn't working well because we are not getting a good product from our volunteer brothers and sisters.

USAPA is destined to become a mirror image of ALPA if it gets established. I doubt the average line pilot frustrated with ALPA will be able to overcome any of the long standing frustrations he sees with ALPA. Same pilots frustrated with each other trying to run a similar type organization on a shoe string.

The only solution I can see is to get rid of the concept of a bottom up association and establish a real top down union. The issues facing all of us today do not lend themselves to this pilot notion of "everybody participate if you want change." Pilots won't do that. Never have and never will. Only a few do and mostly when they have a contract to vote on. So why not think differently and establish a real union?

Bob

 

[luvn737s]

The East has to admit USAPA is about the Nic award.

Nah. Obviously if ALPA cut the secretary's and magazine editor's salaries (or better yet let them strike and hire some scabs) the USAPA movement would evaporate.

Remember the M.O. of the east: "We can't have more unless you have less."

All the while Jack Quixote keeps tilting at "windfalls".

 

[awapilotsforusapa]

I totally agree, ALPA is out of control. I have seen the payroll sheet of lots of people that make more than us. It's horrible.

Nobody has answered the big question. Everyone is avoiding it. And we all know the reason why.

You can force the majority on the AWA guys, but that is as far as the success will go. So what will we have:
A majority that is happy they won.
A majority that can't really get ahead because the other half will be emotional and bitter and will basically resign on participating.
About 1900 pilots from West will surely not want to pay their share of dues, thus USAPA is supported mostly by East.
We start all over on contract talks. Wait 4-5 years while being exposed to a possible merger or wait even better a downturn in the economy.
We will have no protection from merger.
We get into lawsuites with AWA ALPA. They have ALPA pockets who will make sure USAPA goes down. In other words they can draw it out or make USAPA settle due to lack of cash.
We get assesments because the union can't afford the lawsuits.

Not all AWA pilots will avoid paying dues. There are many of us that will be happy to pay into our new union. We've been looking forward to this for years.

The scumbag thugs in our MEC are working on the contract cramdown with Alpo. They want us to settle on a POSTA just to avoid USAPA because there afraid they will lose there flight pay loss positions.

Don't write off our numbers. We even have support from Alpo volunters that were involved in the merger.

For AWA pilots reading this board get your proxies for the recall meeting. The first step in getting rid of Alpo is to get rid of the council 62 mafia.

Support our fo that filed the recalls because he's on our side.