AAA Alpa Thread 10/19-10/25

[P51Pilot]

guys we seriously need to stop fighting!! It's been two years since the merger was consumated and the company made 500,000,000 in profits last year and is likely to post a huge profit tomorrow. We ALL deserve a much needed raise. The arbitration is the arbitration. Period. Some of us may think it was the worst travesty since the inception of the airline business but it cannot and will not be modified. Working under LOA 93 indefinitely just to spite the west does NOT help the east. Unless you feel some sort of vindication. Lets start taking care of our families here and get a contract that puts fo pay above LOA 93 captain pay and then nobody will be left with the short end of the stick. We all deserve better retirement, pay, work rules, and vacation. So lets go get it...

This infighting gets us absolutely nowhere. Sure the west has a few idiots/assholes/whatever as does the east. It's irrelevent to our current issues...

Nothing personal but the Nic is a non starter for the East. First, seniority is a non arbitrary concept, and any attempt to change it via the Nic or otherwise stops the train dead in its tracks. Second, many paid dearly and sacrificed for said $500,000,000 profit which has been generated by the East's route system and revenue base and the first price to be repaid is preservation of the jobs, upgrades, and career advancements so dearly paid for by the East's pilots. Once that is taken care of then the contractual upgrades can be hammered out. It's not about spiting the West, but preserving the present and the future of the East's flying for East pilots and those willing to participate consistent with tenure and not land grabs. If the West wants to share, it will be in a non arbitrary manner, adhering to the bedrock principle of seniority, i.e. DOH with provisions to ease the short term impact of integration. If not, the two can stay separate and the West pilots can enjoy everything PHX and LAS, and the East, PHL, CLT, DCA, LGA, and BOS. The other alternative if there is no willingness to deal with Nic,is that the groups can go in side by side and negotiate separate contracts of equivalent value or continue as is. Hopefully a change is in the air and things will take shape minus ALPA, but either way Nic will continue to perpetuate the status quo.

 

[cynic]

Nothing personal but the Nic is a non starter for the East. First, seniority is a non arbitrary concept, and any attempt to change it via the Nic or otherwise stops the train dead in its tracks. Second, many paid dearly and sacrificed for said $500,000,000 profit which has been generated by the East's route system and revenue base and the first price to be repaid is preservation of the jobs, upgrades, and career advancements so dearly paid for by the East's pilots. Once that is taken care of then the contractual upgrades can be hammered out. It's not about spiting the West, but preserving the present and the future of the East's flying for East pilots and those willing to participate consistent with tenure and not land grabs. If the West wants to share, it will be in a non arbitrary manner, adhering to the bedrock principle of seniority, i.e. DOH with provisions to ease the short term impact of integration. If not, the two can stay separate and the West pilots can enjoy everything PHX and LAS, and the East, PHL, CLT, DCA, LGA, and BOS. The other alternative if there is no willingness to deal with Nic,is that the groups can go in side by side and negotiate separate contracts of equivalent value or continue as is. Hopefully a change is in the air and things will take shape minus ALPA, but either way Nic will continue to perpetuate the status quo.

So you're willing to compromise as long as you get everything you want? I lose more respect for you guys every time you open your mouths and I'm not the only one. Suck it up, make a deal and stop holding every other employee at the airline hostage to your petulant and childish refusal to accept the hole you've helped put yourself in. There is no way Nic can be overturned and you're going to lose money delaying the new contract.Parker isn't going to give you pay parity without a new contract and he shouldn't.

I do try to look at the bright side though, most of you guys are old enough that you won't be around screwing up the airline for that much longer. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, it's just a matter of waiting you out.

 

[nostradamus]

You dont' know what the hell I've done!!! Like I said, you owe an apology EastUS now be a man about it and just do it!!!

A lot of us have had some rough evenings when we posted. If you want me to look back on quotes that I and others posted that were made after a strained night at work or at home, there will be a lot of material.

If you think the cartoon in each one of your posts by a pilot is acceptable to the flying public, you are wrong. Do not be a spoiled kid, take it off.

Do not say well you did this or you did that in the past. Respect is earned over time and lost overnight.

You decide if there is more interaction.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I do try to look at the bright side though, most of you guys are old enough that you won't be around screwing up the airline for that much longer. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, it's just a matter of waiting you out.

Thanks for making their point. How much longer did you have in mind? 6 years or 7?

As for my point, the light at the end of the tunnel is to see ALPA and its flawed totalitarian structure removed once and for all.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

A lot of us have had some rough evenings when we posted. If you want me to look back on quotes that I and others posted that were made after a strained night at work or at home, there will be a lot of material.

Me included.

Do not say well you did this or you did that in the past. Respect is earned over time and lost overnight.

I can agree with that. Good post.

 

[cactusboy53]

OK. Tough days, tough career peaks and valleys, etc.

No fight, but a couple of questions:
1. Are there any of you folks out East that are interested in getting your MEC and JNC back to the negotiating table ASAP? If so, have you taken the time to call your representatives?

2. If USAPA is your groove, realisically speaking what kind of a time frame to you expect to see negotiations reconviene? After that, realistically speaking what kind of a time frame to get a ratified contract?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

No fight, but a couple of questions:

To answer your questions: IMO.

1. Not in my circle of friends and contacts. Why bother to call?

2. Good question. I would think it will depend on a number of factors. One is the future SBU ruling. Has that been filed for? Not to my knowledge. Granted it is a mere formality unless objections are raised. Depends also on when the NMB can hold an election. Certify the results. And finally how much the west is going to delay then. Have heard all about the lawsuits. Lots of variables then. With USAPA I see our positions reversing. Then you can delay until the balance of power shifts west. In the meantime, Doug and Zoomie win.

The only good thing for me is that ALPA will be gone. Please don't give me the same old diatribe about how much money it's costing me. My upgrade again should be next spring if I choose to bid it.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Working under LOA 93 indefinitely just to spite the west does NOT help the east.

Not about spite but dollars and cents. The Nic award is so detrimental that LOA 93 is preferable to any conceivable joint contract that can be negotiated.

If you think it's it's spite (or anything else) you are simply refusing to grasp the magnitude of the problem.

On that note I'll give up trying to explain LOA 93 and join the rest of the crowd who too have given up posting but lurk.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI

Update for October 24, 2007

“You’re Free to Leaveâ€

Dear Philadelphia Pilots,

Unfortunately for all, the meeting completed Saturday October 12th in Washington D.C. turned out to be the set up we expected. A one-two punch designed to intimidate and threaten our MEC to re-enter the JNC process. All the big guns were there, Captain Prater, Captain Rice, and Mike Abram from Cohen, Weiss and Simon. The misguided actions of ALPA continued when on this past Friday Captain Prater once again torpedoed any progress being made towards consensual solutions over the Nicolau debacle with another one of his famous Unity letters.

ALPA International didn’t like the direction your MEC has taken over the past few months embodied in our three unanimous resolutions. This two-day event turned out to be nothing more than a strong-armed attempt by ALPA International to force us back into JNC negotiations. They are attempting to do this by re-framing the argument.

No longer is there any discussion of the “seniority problem;†now we are being painted as obstructions to the negotiation process. And there was no response or acknowledgement of ALPA’s failures, most recently their lack in executing our Scope violation grievance.

The world-famous ALPA advisors have been very effective during previous negotiations in moving our group down the path of least resistance by re-framing the argument. If we haven’t learned anything else, we have surely learned to recognize this tactic.

Remember that we have, by resolution, stopped participating in the JNC process until we receive Pay Parity and Retro pay from September 2007.

The main charge made by ALPA National is that by these resolutions, we are interfering with the collective bargaining between the AWA Pilots and the company. Your PHL Reps absolutely disagree.

It’s important to understand that by the Transition Agreement the AWA Pilots have retained their rights to enter Section 6 Negotiations for themselves. Their contract became amendable in January of 2007. They can serve notice and begin contract negotiations within 30 days. More power to them. They can expect no obstruction from Council 41. The AWA MEC has threatened us with opening of Section 6 negotiations several times over the past eighteen months. Each time we have encouraged them and wished them well.

In addition to the Section 6 options for the AWA MEC, we agree with the Company’s position that either side could pull out of JNC negotiations after June 2006 if progress wasn’t being made.

Don’t let any high-paid lawyers or jet-setting advisors tell you otherwise: EITHER SIDE MAY PULL OUT OF NEGOTIATIONS.

The following is from page 42 of the transcript from the Federal Court in Philadelphia on March 2nd 2007 in front of Judge Berle M. Schiller in which company attorney Bob Siegel goes on the record.

THE COURT: I will hear from Mr. Robert Siegel.

10 MR. SIEGEL: Your Honor, I would characterize the
11 additional claims as tag-on claims, but I'll say this. That
12 he's referring to what we would call a claim under Section 2
13 first, of the Railway Labor Act. Federal Courts do not, ……………………………………
14 ………………….

4 Number two, just to say it on the record, the
5 transition agreement actually says that either party can
6 discontinue those negotiations. It's got a provision in
7 there that says as of June, 2006, if there wasn't a deal, you
8 can discontinue trying to get a deal. We haven't done that.
9 If we were trying to be a bad faith negotiator, we could have
10 just discontinued the negotiations, invoked our rights under
11 the provision that allowed either party to do that at a
12 certain set point in time.

So…….. for invoking our rights, ALPA International is threatening us with trusteeship? It’s good to see ALPA is finally getting tough! But it’s too bad the only ones they get tough with are their membership.

Remember it was the ALPA Attorneys that crafted the Transition Agreement with no timeline for completion of a Joint Contract. In Addition, they failed to comply with their own Merger policy that calls for the protection of existing flying on each side of the merged Airlines. And now, after all their mistakes, we are the ones being threatened and intimidated, and by our own Association.

During the question and answers with Rice and Prater, there were some statements made to which the membership should be privy.

John Prater stated that we were costing our pilots two million a week by not re-engaging in JNC talks. We asked him who had confirmed that information, AWA MEC Chairman John McIlvenna, or Mr. Doug Parker. When asked if Captain Prater had been negotiating behind our backs, he stated that maybe he had. Parity should be no problem then, coming in around a half million a week.

As for the comment Captain Rice made, “You are free to leave,†this was in references to what he had told Captain Hollerbach last month while he was participating in Rice Committee activities. Captain Rice later backtracked and tried to explain there was a difference between asking someone to leave and telling them they were free to leave. That was rich.

As for the declaration made by ALPA International President John Prater, “Seniority is not the foundation of our association, Unity is.†Note: It is likely Captain Behncke would disagree if he were still with us. And tell us John, just how do you develop unity without a seniority system? Should we use the merit system?

No answers to the “seniority problem†were provided by either man other than to re-engage the JNC talks. We have given ALPA International every opportunity to step forward and provide leadership. But instead of leading us toward a solution to the “seniority problem,†they are now attempting to threaten and intimidate us into submission.

Re-entry into the JNC process gives tacit approval to implement the Nicolau Award. It is also a capitulation on our stand for pay parity before any further negotiations. And most of all, it would clear the way for ALPA’s most trusted ones to pull a contract out, that may not be in our best interest, just in time for Christmas.

We continue to stand ready to find solutions for our mutual problems, but Parity and Retro Pay first, no B.S.!

Leading by Poll and Leading Polls

ALPA/Rice Committee continues to poll our pilots in an attempt to support their own desired direction for us. The fourth in a series of polls over the past couple of months was completed last week. They will use the results as their authority to defend their future actions.

We have requested the questions and results from the first two polls, but have yet to receive either. We may have to pass a resolution to not hold our collective breaths.

They will soon claim to be the authority on what exactly it is that you want. And if you disagree, they will state they are acting in the best interest of the majority, and have quantified data to back it up.

PIT Base Closure

The Transition Agreement states that while operating under the period of separate operations if US Airways intends to open or close a domicile, management will meet and confer with ALPA and share the analysis they used to make the decision. If the analysis establishes that there is a cost savings generated by the closing, management may close the base.

Of course, this procedure was not followed by management. A dispute has been filed. Some things never change.

Comment I went back to the original TA cited. I agree that it seems the east MEC is well within its rights to withdraw from the JNC since June 2006. Thanks to the ALPA "Expert" attorneys for crafting such a fine document.

 

[exB717Flyer]

"This two-day event turned out to be nothing more than a strong-armed attempt by ALPA International to force us back into JNC negotiations."

Duh! Parker has already stated he will only negotiate with the JNC. What else is there to talk about?

I really think the AAA MEC would welcome trusteeship at this point just so they could throw up their hands and say, "Hey, we did our best." The only thing worse than how poorly the AAA MEC has represented you is how you've failed to notice.

"No longer is there any discussion of the “seniority problem;â€￾ now we are being painted as obstructions to the negotiation process."

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but that's because the seniority issue has been settled. Just because you're still angry doesn't mean you can still claim it's a problem.

But hey, what does my opinion matter. Just go on ahead and keep demanding unilateral concessions from the West. You've failed with every tactic thus far so why not continue with the same?

 

[P51Pilot]

"This two-day event turned out to be nothing more than a strong-armed attempt by ALPA International to force us back into JNC negotiations."

Duh! Parker has already stated he will only negotiate with the JNC. What else is there to talk about?

I really think the AAA MEC would welcome trusteeship at this point just so they could throw up their hands and say, "Hey, we did our best." The only thing worse than how poorly the AAA MEC has represented you is how you've failed to notice.

"No longer is there any discussion of the “seniority problem;â€￾ now we are being painted as obstructions to the negotiation process."

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but that's because the seniority issue has been settled. Just because you're still angry doesn't mean you can still claim it's a problem.

But hey, what does my opinion matter. Just go on ahead and keep demanding unilateral concessions from the West. You've failed with every tactic thus far so why not continue with the same?

Hey you are free under the TA to negotiate your own contract.

Go for it!

 

[CapnCockroach]

US Airways Pilots Respond to Company Third Quarter Earnings Report
Thursday October 25, 3:11 pm ET


PHOENIX, Oct. 25 /PRNewswire/ -- As US Airways (NYSE: LCC - News) management today announced a $177 million profit for the third quarter 2007, US Airways pilots reaffirmed their commitment for a single, fair collective bargaining agreement that would enable US Airways to achieve millions of dollars in synergies created by the merger of the two airlines.

The America West and US Airways pilots, who are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l (ALPA), provided their management teams with billions of dollars in cost savings to ensure the viability of their respective airlines. The contributions of both pilot groups, as well as those made by other employee groups, enabled the successful financial merger of America West and US Airways. But this merger is far from complete. Management has clearly failed to integrate labor and manage two diverse cultures.

As US Airways continues to post record profits, the pilots of US Airways and America West have been in negotiations with management for more than two years to attain a single collective bargaining agreement that recognizes the pilots' contributions and the magnitude of their role in US Airways' turnaround.

"During these negotiations, our pilots expect to increase our compensation, enhance our retirement and benefits, and improve our working conditions. Anything less is unacceptable," said Captain John McIlvenna, chairman of the America West Master Executive Council. "The America West and US Airways pilots have each contributed decades of superior service, always supporting our respective companies through bad times, and we intend to share in the success of the new US Airways moving forward."

ALPA is the collective bargaining agent for both the America West and US Airways pilot groups. Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world's largest pilot union, representing more than 60,000 pilots at 42 airlines in the United States and Canada.

 

[P51Pilot]

The America West and xxxxxxxxxxxx, who are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l (ALPA),

said Captain John McIlvenna, chairman of the America West Master Executive Council.

Best of luck in Section 6 talks.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Duh! Parker has already stated he will only negotiate with the JNC. What else is there to talk about?

If you file for legal section 6 and he doesn't negotiate, I think you would have recourse under the RLA. Something to do with bad faith or in this case no faith bargaining. Who knows you might get Doug to finally stand up and lead for a change. His ego couldn't handle his next deal falling apart over this mess.

I really think the AAA MEC would welcome trusteeship at this point just so they could throw up their hands and say, "Hey, we did our best." The only thing worse than how poorly the AAA MEC has represented you is how you've failed to notice.

Problem is, now it's been determined the east was well within its legal right to pull out of JNC, what grounds could they put them into trusteeship? Nice precedent for the rest of the member carriers to see. Plus, how fast can you spell new union?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Duh! Parker has already stated he will only negotiate with the JNC. What else is there to talk about?

Well. I don't think that's quite accurate. I attended the pilot town hall meeting in CLT last month, and what Parker said there is that he will only negotiate pay for the east pilots at the JNC table. He also made mention of the fact that the west could open Section 6 negotiations at any time as is their prerogative.