AAA ALPA Thread 10/5 to 10/12

[CactusFlyr]

Right or wrong guys, nobody wants to get screwed. If the tables were turned then AAA would be telling us this is just the way it is... Our friend hypocrisy visits everyone...

They actually did say this, prior to the arbitration results when they were demanding DOH/LOS. Here it is boys, go find your name on the list on the wall and that is where you are. Boy have they changed their mind now.

 

[P51Pilot]

I think what he is trying to say is that the TWA pilots had their ability to negotiate removed before the transaction, foolishly. You guys on the other hand just refused to negotiate, DOH/LOS or die. The TWA pilots were sold out by ALPA at the bargaining table; so were the East guys, I agree. You were sold out by your own local leadership, not AWA, not Nicolau. Go blame them.

Nothing short of DOH with fences provided the West with a windfall, so what was there to negotiate. How big or small of a windfall, yeah right. No this is ALPA's problem by not having coherent policies and the guts to fix a clear violation of the tenets of their policy and taking the easy way out by stating it's not "policy" but a "guideline."

ALPA has sealed its fate here and damaged the profession and now CAL who is in contract negotiations currently will be the first to pay the price as a proud ALPA carrier. I wonder if that will be a wakeup call for them and everyone else. Maybe it will start a movement toward independent Unions as they continue to exceed the performance of ALPA, with none of its conflicts of interest.

 

[Tiger 1050]

They actually did say this, prior to the arbitration results when they were demanding DOH/LOS. Here it is boys, go find your name on the list on the wall and that is where you are. Boy have they changed their mind now.

Yeah I have heard that too. Doesn't make any difference now though... Even if USAPA gets voted in the list will stand. It is disappointing to see that USAPA, supposedly a better more fair representative, is filling their minds with ideas such as vacating the Nic. It's B.S. and they know it. How is this type of politicking any different than ALPA? ...That's a rhetorical question....

 

[AAA73Pilot]

On the flipside, the fact that no west pilots are granted access to the website guarantees that USAPA is interested in doing nothing more than trying to screw the West pilots.

Look--there is no amount of dancing around this issue that is going to somehow cloud the fact that East pilots get to see it, but West pilots don't. If USAPA's motives were pure, this would not be the case. As those motives are not what the minister of USAPA propaganda says they are, it's no big shock that the West guys can't get in.

That's okay--USAPA gets to "inherit the airline." Including the transition agreement. You guys should really trying reading it, and then comprehending that you either get LOA 93 as it stands forever, cut a deal with the West guys on reasonable grounds, or you get Nicolau. Those are the slam dunk portions. That the NMB has not found a single bargaining unit yet is icing on the cake.

Nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes. Everything else is negotiable. Until the west guys come out in masse to support USAPA then what would you expect? Lets see, allow a group to the website whose only purpose is to stop the new union. I don't think so. Send in a card and ask to join. Simple.

And what would your motives be? In my opinion to derail something very good.

Actually that is what we're hoping for. To come up with something reasonable that is acceptable to all. But one thing I am sure of, the only slam dunk involving all 3 parties rests with Doug and company. The rest is a toss-up. If Doug really wants to put this together he could have stepped forward with some real leadership when he saw things were not working out.

As for the NMB. Has anyone proposed to them to rule yet? USAPA hasn't, to my knowledge ALPA hasn't. Or the company. But it's only a matter of time before someone does petition for a SBU ruling. Or does a ruling come by magic? In our case it's all a matter of timing.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Nothing short of DOH with fences provided the West with a windfall, so what was there to negotiate. How big or small of a windfall, yeah right. No this is ALPA's problem by not having coherent policies and the guts to fix a clear violation of the tenets of their policy and taking the easy way out by stating it's not "policy" but a "guideline."

I think the words "Career Expectations" comes into play but let's not rehash that argument. I know how you feel and you know how I feel...

ALPA has sealed its fate here and damaged the profession and now CAL who is in contract negotiations currently will be the first to pay the price as a proud ALPA carrier. I wonder if that will be a wakeup call for them and everyone else. Maybe it will start a movement toward independent Unions as they continue to exceed the performance of ALPA, with none of its conflicts of interest.

You have no argument from me on this one. Too bad USAPA wants to screw every west pilot. It could have been great thing. I believe it will get voted in by a slim margin only to find itself bankrupt soon thereafter... It seems it is the best option for your groups interests but a futile one if I may say...

 

[BoeingBoy]

As for the NMB. Has anyone proposed to them to rule yet? USAPA hasn't, to my knowledge ALPA hasn't.

I don't think USAPA can at this point, at least not as an entity. It's my understand that the bargaining agent (ALPA at this point) or an employee who is represented by the bargaining agent can ask for a ruling on single bargaining unit status. Of course, it's really a moot point for now and would be a mere formality when it happens.

Jim

 

[Tiger 1050]

Actually that is what we're hoping for. To come up with something reasonable that is acceptable to all.

Funny thing is I think you would find a fair amount of support from the west if it were not for the DOH/LOS USAPA wishes to impose on the west. The west for years has been treated like red-headed step-children by ALPA. There is no loyalty to ALPA here such as one would find with the likes of UAL or DAL... Just as USAPA is the best tool to forward your agenda, ALPA is our best tool.

I also know that for most of you this situation is the last straw, you want to see ALPA gone for many reasons not just the Nic. If you truly desire to have ALPA kicked off the property then you must unite ALL pilots. Your DOH/LOS mantra only insures lengthy litigation at best...

 

[Cactus737]

If your decision is made, why bother?

That is about the most illogical public response so far. I really think your more interested in defeating USAPA than truly in search for information. Nice try.

I'll give you credit for giving me the straightest answer to my questions.

But really, my responses are very logical because I've proven a point (and you guys have helped me prove it).

 

[Tiger 1050]

Hey guys I thought this would be a nice crewroom poster...


View attachment 6517

 

[Cactus737]

Funny thing is I think you would find a fair amount of support from the west if it were not for the DOH/LOS USAPA wishes to impose on the west. The west for years has been treated like red-headed step-children by ALPA. There is no loyalty to ALPA here such as one would find with the likes of UAL or DAL... Just as USAPA is the best tool to forward your agenda, ALPA is our best tool.

I also know that for most of you this situation is the last straw, you want to see ALPA gone for many reasons not just the Nic. If you truly desire to have ALPA kicked off the property then you must unite ALL pilots. Your DOH/LOS mantra only insures lengthy litigation at best...

Tiger,

What they're trying to do here is obvious, which is why I was pressing them about the website. They know that we don't inherently have a high approval rating of ALPA either, and are trying to capitalize on that by saying what they have to in order to gain some support from our side.

But it should be very obvious to anybody paying attention that USAPA intends to treat the AWA pilots much worse than ALPA ever did.

I don't think anybody out here is actually falling for it, but we should take measures to prevent the Stockholm Syndrome from setting in over here.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Tiger,

What they're trying to do here is obvious, which is why I was pressing them about the website. They know that we don't inherently have a high approval rating of ALPA either, and are trying to capitalize on that by saying what they have to in order to gain some support from our side.

But it should be very obvious to anybody paying attention that USAPA intends to treat the AWA pilots much worse than ALPA ever did.

I don't think anybody out here is actually falling for it, but we should take measures to prevent the Stockholm Syndrome from setting in over here.

I agree. Why ALPA has not started a barrage over places like CLT, PHL, BOS, LGA, DCA, and ... is beyond me!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

But it should be very obvious to anybody paying attention that USAPA intends to treat the AWA pilots much worse than ALPA ever did.

Actually, no we wouldn't. But it will take a compromise from both sides to move forward. Under USAPA we see it's the only chance to do that.

I fully appreciate your position. The bulk of the USAPA supporters realize that straight DOH without conditions and restrictions is unworkable. Neither is straight slotting. The only chance for either side to come out of their respective corners is under new leadership who can see the benefits of doing so, but not at the expense of either group. Under ALPA I lose every way. Under USAPA I lose half way. If you were me, which would you choose?

ALPA wants to solve the problem through a new CBA. We now know that a new agreement is not worth the paper it's printed on. If a new deal or merger comes down, all it takes is some back room deal to negate any contract. If it would benefit ALPA, do you not think any of us would be expendible? Putting your faith into an "Association" that could care less about you individually is your fantasyland. As some of you so proclaim about the fantasy of USAPA.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I'll give you credit for giving me the straightest answer to my questions.

But really, my responses are very logical because I've proven a point (and you guys have helped me prove it).

I will always try to give you answers that I know. But my opinions are my own and may not be what you're looking for.

Actually, you haven't proven anything. Other than the fact your only goal is to gain access to an organization to derail its mission. You haven't denied that either.

Send in a card. We'll see what happens in granting access. What you see on the public side of the website should be enough to make a decision on that. If you still want to vote for ALPA during the election, then that is your choice.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I agree. Why ALPA has not started a barrage over places like CLT, PHL, BOS, LGA, DCA, and ... is beyond me!

Actually they are just beginning. Have received some e-mail and regular mail on the "Just the Facts" plus other mailings. Problem is for ALPA, they keep shooting themselves in the foot sending misrepresentations and in one case an outright lie. Like I said in previous posts somewhere, "I can't wait for the campaign". I have some very pointed questions for Prater and company.

If ALPA wants to have any chance on staying on the property, national better start looking long and hard at itself. Change is on the horizon, one way or the other.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I don't think USAPA can at this point, at least not as an entity. It's my understand that the bargaining agent (ALPA at this point) or an employee who is represented by the bargaining agent can ask for a ruling on single bargaining unit status. Of course, it's really a moot point for now and would be a mere formality when it happens.

Jim

Hey Jim, How are 'ya?

Agreed. USAPA does not have standing yet. Either way a ruling will come down.

However, are you sure a single employee can ask for a ruling?