AAA ALPA Thread 10/5 to 10/12

[Cactus737]

You want access turn in your card. Turning in a card doesn't mean you have voted for them. Voting "No" is allowed.

However, I don't see why you want access. You already have USAPA all figured out and have nothing to learn.

I love the fact that you have a picture of Prater as your avatar because you dodge questions and give non-answers just like he does. Did you learn from him, or is it just that you admire his style?

I don't have USAPA all figured out, which is why I'm asking questions. But so far, NOBODY has given me a straight answer to any of the questions I've asked. I think that's more telling than anything else.

The fact is that if the best interests of the AWA pilots are going to be represented by USAPA, then there is no reason why you shouldn't allow AWA pilots access to the website now. There should be nothing to hide. In fact, if the product you're offering is so good, then you should be advertising those "secret documents" to us so that we can start turning in cards by the truckload.

I'm wondering if this is how the new "transparent" USAPA is always going to conduct business. Are you going to reach a TA with the company and then require us to vote "yes" before we get to see a copy of the TA? That's what you're asking me to do by turning in a card before getting to see what I've signed up for.

How about this - since you say it only takes a submitting a card to get access, why not just open up the website to AWA pilots if there is an election? At that point, cards won't matter, so there will be even less reason to restrict the website.

 

[Cactus737]

Almost 2600 cards in ( I hear ) and 2691 active pilots on 08-01.

99% participation

That's assuming, of course, that all of those cards came from current active pilots. It will be interesting to know how many of those get pitched in an audit. If it were 2600 cards from active pilots, I'm sure they'd be in the hands of the NMB already.

 

[SegmentKing]

You're unethical and immoral, reference the fact you want to steal the AWA pilots' jobs.

So the only way to prevent "stealing" a job is to put up permanent bases and only allow transfers between each's former bases.

Is that what you guys want?

So when PHX gets the axe as PIT has, will you all be crying again, just like the west did when they wanted the east's profit sharing?

 

[Phoenix]

I love the fact that you have a picture of Prater as your avatar...

Oh, is that who that is.

I think that's more telling than anything else.

So, again, why do you want access?

There should be nothing to hide. In fact, if the product you're offering is so good, then you should be advertising those "secret documents"

There are no "secret documents". There is no conspiracy to tar and feather AWA pilots. This isn't being done to harm AWA pilots.

That's what you're asking me to do by turning in a card before getting to see what I've signed up for.

Turning in a card to request a representational election does not mean you support any union. It just means that you want USAPA and ALPA to jusify why they should get your vote. And then you get to choose who you think is the right union or association.

How about this - since you say it only takes a submitting a card to get access, why not just open up the website to AWA pilots if there is an election?

I have no control over the website, but that sounds reasonable to me. I imagine though the kinds of things you want to know will be huge issues that USAPA and ALPA will have to explain when you are considering which union to vote for. USAPA should not be voted in just because ALPA sneers down their nose. USAPA has to offer valid reasons of why they will be better than the devil we already know.

Turn in your card if you want to participate in an opportunity to explore our options. Sit on your hands and watch and you will likely still have an opportunity to explore our options. Its easy. You get a choice whatever you do.

 

[Phoenix]

That's assuming, of course, that all of those cards came from current active pilots. It will be interesting to know how many of those get pitched in an audit. If it were 2600 cards from active pilots, I'm sure they'd be in the hands of the NMB already.

Yeah, it will probably never happen.

 

[Jetz]

I have read ALPA's Point of View and have made some decisions I can live with:

I agree with Boeing that we are responsible for our actions and our elected representatives, and I will not hide form our mistakes or misfortunes. I agree with the majority that the seniority list is a travesty for us and solutions need to be found, but I cannot help but notice a lack of integrity on our part by not honoring agreements we had with the west and Company. What if the situation were reversed, would we not demand the same? I believe the best course action is to complete the process we started and try to get the protections we deserve as part of a joint agreement.

How can USAPA possibly give us anything but Pandora’s Box and huge legal ramifications that we will pay for one way or another. My seniority is not for sale; neither is my livelihood or integrity.

If another merger comes around the corner how do we ever enter into another agreement with another pilot group

Yeah, it will probably never happen.

 

[EastUS]

I have read ALPA's Point of View and have made some decisions I can live with:

I agree with Boeing that we are responsible for our actions and our elected representatives, and I will not hide form our mistakes or misfortunes. I agree with the majority that the seniority list is a travesty for us and solutions need to be found, but I cannot help but notice a lack of integrity on our part by not honoring agreements we had with the west and Company. What if the situation were reversed, would we not demand the same? I believe the best course action is to complete the process we started and try to get the protections we deserve as part of a joint agreement.

How can USAPA possibly give us anything but Pandora’s Box and huge legal ramifications that we will pay for one way or another. My seniority is not for sale; neither is my livelihood or integrity.

If another merger comes around the corner how do we ever enter into another agreement with another pilot group

"I agree with Boeing that we are responsible for our actions and our elected representatives," Then both Boeing and you have no issues with toe tapping politicians in airport bathrooms...given that you're "responsible" for "elected representatives" actions?

You've got me fully confused now. "I believe the best course action is to complete the process we started and try to get the protections we deserve as part of a joint agreement. " That followed by "My seniority is not for sale; neither is my livelihood or integrity."

=???? You wish to further trust Alpo to "try" to get some/any protections...immediately after they've shown a pronounced position saying that your "seniority is now worthless...and in fact GONE? you're seniority "isn't for sale under" Alpo all right = it's already been sold for their convenience and is GONE if they stay in the saddle....and for absolutely NOTHING in return. I mean no offence by observing the following: You first list your "seniority", followed only then by your "livliehood"....and only lastly by your "integrity". You're at a unique crossroads in history that may well allow you to fight for all three of these if you choose to....or you can continue to set back and see more great work done for all three issues via Alpo. Your choice.

PS: Who's "we"?

 

[Phoenix]

.. My seniority is not for sale..

Frankly I am less concerned about my own seniority than the seniority of those junior to me.

The Nic list is not a travesty. Nic was given a difficult task and had no obligation to follow any of ALPA merger policy terms of reference whatsoever (Prater and Pals have made it clear that the only obligation was for everyone, including Prater and Pals themselves, to completely abandon all authority and power to a single man to make whatever decision he fancied, by whim or reason it mattered not). He pulled one out, and Prater and pals feign impotence to even decide if they are allowed to rule if they have oversight of the terms in the constitution and bylaws.

The travesty is an association that ostensibly defends pilots, yet imposes a complete abandonment of power to define or defend the only term of reference that matters, and include even themselves in that group of impotent, and has abandoned pilots in similar manner for decades.

In my opinion, the greater travesty is those who now have a choice, choosing to acquiesce to it as long as they get a little something to avoid the inconvenience.

 

[Phoenix]

PS: Who's "we" ?

Ask John. He signs his letters "In Unity."

 

[nostradamus]

So I guess that is why your buddy Nos gives AWA crews a 2AM wake up and thinks that is funny to post about it. Is this the way animals play?

I was just kidding, even AWA320 got it. It is sort of like your joke in the post below.

prechilill
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Posted on: May 7 2007, 05:10 AM


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QUOTE(Phoenix @ May 6 2007, 10:01 PM) *
So why ya wasting your time on this board? Your fight is over and you won.laugh.gif


The west pilots didn't win anything, in fact we all lost seniority with this deal.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I bet you are wrong on this. You would like to believe this to be so, but the reality is you and your small kind have a weak following and this is seen in how poorly the USAPA movement is proceeding- one of your gimps has to mail in cards himself. Yes, there are a couple hundred angry East pilots, but you guys are angry at life in general and now found a convenient entity to blame: the America West pilots. Your thinking is so clouded by emotion you do not see reality around you.

Your entitled to your opinion. However, we're not small. Poorly? By what standard? Instant gratification? All good things take time. Lets see, USAPA is formed the first of June, the website opens around the 10th, active card solicitations begin the end of June. So in a little over 3 and half months we have over 2600 cards from the pilot groups. Some not even back on the property yet. And you still want to call that small? Thats fine, when the election comes you vote your way and I'll vote my way.

Too bad you believe your the boogymen/women. I'm not blaming you or any AWA pilot for this mess. If you want to cling to that, that's your choice. I and the other USAPA supporters are blaming ALPA for this and for many other things. The merger here just brought it all out in the open. For a lot of us we just want to see ALPA gone, plain and simple. There are many here who have resigned from ALPA even before the merger announcement. So we're not clouded by emotion. Just a common goal.

The campaign will be great to watch. Can't wait to see how Prater and company will react to some very interesting questions.

 

[EastUS]

[quote name='AAA73Pilot' date='Oct 8 2007, 11:49 PM' post='532690'
The campaign will be great to watch. Can't wait to see how Prater and company will react to some very interesting questions.
[/quote]


I'll guess that he'll do his best to avoid any/all personal confrontation of any kind. Should he choose to take on actual debate...I imagine something like Ned Beatty from Deliverance performing in the chorus line in Riverdance.

 

[ableoneable]

To paraphrase Jim from the office; "Okay universe you win, I miss USA320."

His mania has no substitute.

I disagree with East and Nostradamus but neither of them is actually unhinged.

Even our resident Loon on the ALPA boards, HH, is busy sending in USAPA cards and has left the building.

 

[nostradamus]

The APA held talks with the TWA pilots, ignored them, stapled 2/3 of them, and told them they thought it was a fair integration. This is what unions do to other unions when they are left un-checked by any process.

TWA ALPA dollars at work

 

[ableoneable]

TWA ALPA dollars at work

I recently flew with two different TWA/AMR refugees. They both said that the TWA pilot lawsuit was looking pretty good and each of them thought that a re-ordering of the list was a very real possibility.