AAA ALPA Thread 10/5 to 10/12

[P51Pilot]

So basically, USAPA invents a merger policy that uses the buzz words "date of hire" to intially gain support from AAA pilots (AWA pilots aren't allowed access to the website), yet there's no criteria or process to determine how conditions, restrictions, and fences are determined. Also, what's the point of having a date-of-hire list if your furloughing out of seniority order, etc?

Anyhow, I can imagine on each side furloughing as a result of it's own cuts, but I can only see USAPA going along with that as long as the cuts are coming from the West side. If the cuts came form the East side, then I'm sure the rhetoric would quickly switch of a "reverse seniority furlough".
Maybe if you quit avoiding the question, you wouldn't have to keep trying to dodge it. I'm not asking you about Nicolau, I'm asking you why you think date-of-hire is fair to AWA pilots.

The bottom line is that USAPA is out to screw AWA pilots. All of the non-answers you guys have posted here have further convinced me of that. I'd at least have some respect for you if you were honest about it. Your answers sort of remind me of the type of baloney that management puts out.

How clear do I have to be. If D. Collelo's DOH places him in the left seat of any aircraft including an A330/A340/A350 and that flying is conducted out of the route system brought to the merger by the East then he should see it before every West pilot except those west pilots hired before him. Is that clear enough?

DOH is unionism and seniority. Fences, conditions, and restrictions are to mitigate the impact of a merger in the short term. I would say 5-7 year fences and conditions are reasonable and 10 years would be maximum. You can build conditions for any number of things including downturns and furloughs. Upgrades conditions can be built to ratio upgrades on attrition and new vacancies. At the end of the day when the fences come down, a persons time given to the company is honored and the principles we adhere to when left to our own devices(DOH), isn't scrapped during a merger in a dogfight and arbitrary arguments to leverage an advantage over fellow pilots in the short term to the detriment of the profession and unity in the long term.

DOH is not meant to screw people into getting furloughed but to allow a pilot who spends 30+ years with a company enjoy the time spent in his craft. What you propose it stripping someone who might have 30+ years with the company and would have retired on the top equipment from that benefit and any sacrifice made to preserve it and give it someone who was hired 15 years later and will have 15 more years after that person retires.

DOH with fences and conditions is the only solution to be fair to both parties. It does not have to be unfair to any party but it looks like this is just going to be a full out brawl and bitter. I think you will find USAPA won't do the old screw job you seem to be so convinced of, because it will have only one Master, US Airways pilots and it wouldn't be beneficial to screw anyone for the long term.

ALPA and Nicalou have made a disaster of things. Keep fighting to hold on to them and the disaster will just continue. Just look at the last 30 years. You seem to think things will be instantaneous if USAPA is elected. You will be part of the process to elect reps.

If you can't get past Nicalou then your heels are probably dug in and you will fight it all the way. You will probably find yourself surprised that even fighting it, things will be much better than ALPA and your interests will be taken into account.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I think you will find USAPA won't do the old screw job you seem to be so convinced of, because it will have only one Master, US Airways pilots and it wouldn't be beneficial to screw anyone for the long term.

You will be part of the process to elect reps.

If you can't get past Nicalou then your hills are probably dug in and you will fight it all the way. You will probably find yourself surprised that even fighting it, things will be much better than ALPA and your interests will be taken into account.

Overall a great post. Didn't want to quote it all. With ALPA your guaranteed more of the same. Which we now know doesn't work for the line pilot.

 

[Cactus737]

Do you think Date of Hire unfair?

In this case, it's definitely unfair. The AAA pilots think it's fair only because it gives them a major advantage.

 

[Cactus737]

How clear do I have to be. If D. Collelo's DOH places him in the left seat of any aircraft including an A330/A340/A350 and that flying is conducted out of the route system brought to the merger by the East then he should see it before every West pilot except those west pilots hired before him. Is that clear enough?

DOH also lets 85% of the AWA pilots get furloughed BEFORE him, despite the fact that he didn't bring a job to the merger.

DOH is unionism and seniority. Fences, conditions, and restrictions are to mitigate the impact of a merger in the short term. I would say 5-7 year fences and conditions are reasonable and 10 years would be maximum. You can build conditions for any number of things including downturns and furloughs. Upgrades conditions can be built to ratio upgrades on attrition and new vacancies. At the end of the day when the fences come down, a persons time given to the company is honored and the principles we adhere to when left to our own devices(DOH), isn't scrapped during a merger in a dogfight and arbitrary arguments to leverage an advantage over fellow pilots in the short term to the detriment of the profession and unity in the long term.

You tout DOH only because it heavily favors you. There's no DOH in Merger Policy, and if you had been "merged" with American or Southwest, they'd be telling you that you should be lucky to enjoy the bottom of their list.

DOH is not meant to screw people into getting furloughed but to allow a pilot who spends 30+ years with a company enjoy the time spent in his craft. What you propose it stripping someone who might have 30+ years with the company and would have retired on the top equipment from that benefit and any sacrifice made to preserve it and give it someone who was hired 15 years later and will have 15 more years after that person retires.

Yet DOH gives somebody who didn't even bring a job to the merger a cushion of 1500+ pilots in case of a furlough. How is that not a windfall?

DOH with fences and conditions is the only solution to be fair to both parties. It does not have to be unfair to any party but it looks like this is just going to be a full out brawl and bitter. I think you will find USAPA won't do the old screw job you seem to be so convinced of, because it will have only one Master, US Airways pilots and it wouldn't be beneficial to screw anyone for the long term.

I know you guys are desperate for your last bunch of cards, but trying to convince AWA pilots that USAPA isn't going to screw us is a waste of your time.

BTW - if USAPA plans on being fair to AWA pilots, why are we not allowed to view the member's only section of the USAPA website?

ALPA and Nicalou have made a disaster of things. Keep fighting to hold on to them and the disaster will just continue. Just look at the last 30 years. You seem to think things will be instantaneous if USAPA is elected. You will be part of the process to elect reps.

In reality, your MEC's inability to be honest with you and instead inflating your expectations beyond reality is what has made a disaster of things. Those guys knew that DOH was never going to happen under Merger Policy, and they should have told you that BEFORE agreeing to integrate seniority via that process.

 

[P51Pilot]

DOH also lets 85% of the AWA pilots get furloughed BEFORE him, despite the fact that he didn't bring a job to the merger.
You tout DOH only because it heavily favors you. There's no DOH in Merger Policy, and if you had been "merged" with American or Southwest, they'd be telling you that you should be lucky to enjoy the bottom of their list.
Yet DOH gives somebody who didn't even bring a job to the merger a cushion of 1500+ pilots in case of a furlough. How is that not a windfall?
I know you guys are desperate for your last bunch of cards, but trying to convince AWA pilots that USAPA isn't going to screw us is a waste of your time.

BTW - if USAPA plans on being fair to AWA pilots, why are we not allowed to view the member's only section of the USAPA website?
In reality, your MEC's inability to be honest with you and instead inflating your expectations beyond reality is what has made a disaster of things. Those guys knew that DOH was never going to happen under Merger Policy, and they should have told you that BEFORE agreeing to integrate seniority via that process.

I think you will find most on the East will fight this battle to the end. I imagine it is inevitable since you feel entitled to someone else's career instead of your own. I think USAPA might not gift you someone else's but it will certainly look out for yours.

 

[Phoenix]

BTW - if USAPA plans on being fair to AWA pilots, why are we not allowed to view the member's only section of the USAPA website?

If you have turned in your card then you should be able to participate on the board. If you are not willing to turn in your card then why do you feel slighted?

 

[EastUS]

and instead inflating your expectations beyond reality is what has made a disaster of things.

The classic Alpo "managing expectations" so that a buncha' political hacks and slugs can continue to live comfortably, while doing nothing for the pilot groups they "represent" is far more the root of making a 'disaster of things", and they've been doing exactly that for decades. The vast majority of you folks out west are new to the Alpo game. All you've seen thus far's the St Nic gift. To me? = It was just the last straw.

A brief review of "reality" shows that a majority of pilots in a newly "merged" operation received an utterly intolerable situation via Alpo. If any quibbling's to be done..we'll certainly easilly agree that said majority feels such to be the case, and will continue to do so. There's a fantasy afoot out west that some magically great, and virtually instant contract would arise the moment the east just bends over for Nic. What this fantasy is seriously based on is a complete mystery to me, as nothing's changed in the upper management ranks. There couldn't be a more perfect division of any two labor groups at present. What possible reason truly exists to expect anything more than small crumbs from management at this time? Because of some arbitrator?..perhaps if Alpo's finest amateurs do their usual "negotiations" and essentially just say/ask pretty please? In any case...What's the value of any "contract" when another "merger" sell off/whatever transpires? Any east pilot would need to completely brain dead to buy into such BS. Let me see; Alpo wants the last vestiges of careers via seniority slaughter...and it's then immediately reasonable to trust them with gaining a world beating, instant contract that will make everything just great..and be worth absolutely nothing in the likely near future. As for any predictable "fair" treatment from Alpo in any future issues...consider how they're treating the generally longest paying dues group around at present. For that matter..review all that they've done to...I mean "for" pilots ever since deregulation...sheesh.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I know you guys are desperate for your last bunch of cards, but trying to convince AWA pilots that USAPA isn't going to screw us is a waste of your time.

BTW - if USAPA plans on being fair to AWA pilots, why are we not allowed to view the member's only section of the USAPA website?

We're not desperate. So long as cards keep coming in we'll wait til they dry up. We've had more than enough to file for quite a while. Timing is everything.

Like a previous poster said, send in your card, have it verified and I'm sure you will be allowed on the forum.

 

[legacy-to-LCC]

I imagine it is inevitable since you feel entitled to someone else's career instead of your own.

and there's the bottom line...well said!!

 

[Cactus737]

I think you will find most on the East will fight this battle to the end. I imagine it is inevitable since you feel entitled to someone else's career instead of your own. I think USAPA might not gift you someone else's but it will certainly look out for yours.

I'm not convinced that everybody who says they're going to do something will actually do it. Meaning, just over half of our pilots voted for our last contact, yet I couldn't find anybody who said they were going to vote for it when the ballot was out. Now, I can't find anybody who actually voted for it either. Vote tampering? I think now.

Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that your guys are entitled to come off of furlough, leapfrog over me, and then stay employed while I'm furloughed during the next downturn. That's what USAPA wants to do, and that's entitling yourself to MY career, and you're at a major disadvantage in being able to pull that off.

 

[flytchick]

We're not desperate. So long as cards keep coming in we'll wait til they dry up. We've had more than enough to file for quite a while. Timing is everything.

Like a previous poster said, send in your card, have it verified and I'm sure you will be allowed on the forum.

So then what are you waiting for??

 

[Phoenix]

So then what are you waiting for??

For Junebug's card.

 

[Cactus737]

If you have turned in your card then you should be able to participate on the board. If you are not willing to turn in your card then why do you feel slighted?

Last time I checked the website, it said that the forums were for East pilots only. But assuming that policy has changed, why should I commit to something that I don't know anything about? Meaning, if USAPA is good for West pilots, your forums and "secret documents" should speak for themselves and shouldn't be secret. Fascinating how this new union pledges transparency, but even in it's infancy, there's already a large element of exclusivity.

If you're going to earn any West votes, you're going to have to convince us that USAPA is a viable alternative. When our experience with USAPA is limited to "date-of-hire" propaganda, exclusion from the website, and insulting public comments about West pilots from USAPA founders, you're going to have to expect that we'll go out of our way to ensure your failure, regardless of the outcome of the election.

 

[Ifyoudon'tlikeitquit!]

...consider how they're treating the generally longest paying dues group around at present. For that matter..review all that they've done to...I mean "for" pilots ever since deregulation...sheesh.

Deregulation happened in 1978. The ALPA Merger policy changed from DOH in the mid 90's. That's 17 years of "doing nothing". The AAA guys were so enraged by that decision that it only took them 10+ years to decide they didn't like it. Surprisingly enough, that was after the arbitration ruling didn't give them everything they wanted.

Don't blame a quarter century of apathy and inaction on ALPA National, you only have yourself and your reps to blame for the situation you find yourself in. If you feel so strongly about DOH you should have spoken up a decade ago, when the rules changed. You didn't because you figured that the new merger policy would work in your favor in case you merger with United (or a similar airline). Bet you were already counting on that 747 SFO base, weren't you?

Stop wallowing in your "I'm a victim" mindset. Where's Doctor Phil when you need him!

 

[nostradamus]

[quote name='Ifyoudon'tlikeitquit!' post='532370' date='Oct 8 2007, 11:27 AM']Stop wallowing in your "I'm a victim" mindset. Where's Doctor Phil when you need him![/quote]

Junebug, the employee assistance program is tailored to your needs. Contact your ALPA rep, they will give you the help you need.