AAA ALPA Thread 10/5 to 10/12

[SegmentKing]

Why would UA ground 50% of an airline that makes 500 mil a year.

wopr21

Wopr21, we've been down this road with United before... the DOT will throw a lot of hurdles at any United-USAirways link and the PHX & LAS ops would have to be handed over to someone (something that USAirways is good at!) or closed due to the proximity of LAX & SFO. Unfortunately United's mgt has a "we're better than you are" attitude to both the HP and US ops - so they'd only take what is valuable and won't cause issues with DOJ / DOT regulators... which means CLT, LGA, and BOS may be the only part of the operation to remain 100% intact while everything else has to be sold off or operations significantly reduced.

 

[P51Pilot]

See, that's funny. It's difficult for me to figure out how you can rationalize to yourself date-of-hire is fair when it would provide block-holding captain seats to pilots returning from furlough. When does a furloughed pilot have an expectation to return from furlough to anything other than the bottom of the active list? I also have a hard time figuring out how a 1998 AAA hire, who had less than 3 years of service when furloughed, who was on furlough for MORE THAN 3 YEARS when the merger was annoucned, should be placed ahead of a 1998-hire AWA captain who has never been furloughed.

Sorry, but when you're proposing an integration method that replaces active AWA pilots with furloughed AAA pilots, THAT'S stealing.

BTW - the reason why DOH is removed from merger policy is because it does NOT always provide a fair and equitable seniority integration method by the opinion of the overwhelming majority of the airline industry. YOU happen to think it is fair because YOU are employed by the most senior pilot group in the industry, and it benefits you the most.

Anyhow, the reason why USAPA is going to cost me money is NOT because of their proposed seniority integration (which has a minimal chance of success at best). The cost will be the countless lawsuits I pony up for, and the lack of a contract for many years to come.

Separate contracts and you can have all the Captain blocks in Phoenix and Vegas you want. The vacancies created on the East weren't anywhere in your AWA 1998 hires so called expectations. They were however in any east pilots including the furloughed. The sacrifices that were made in terms of the pension, wage cuts, work rule changes including scope relief and furloughs were made to preserve those expectations. If you don't think riding in and standing on the shoulders of someone else and reaping the benefit their sacrifices paid for is theft, thats your problem.

You keep driving narrow bodies around the desert in the shadow of Southwest on the cheap, because that was and has been your expectation and sue away.

 

[Cactus737]

Separate contracts and you can have all the Captain blocks in Phoenix and Vegas you want. The vacancies created on the East weren't anywhere in your AWA 1998 hires so called expectations. They were however in any east pilots including the furloughed. The sacrifices that were made in terms of the pension, wage cuts, work rule changes including scope relief and furloughs were made to preserve those expectations. If you don't think riding in and standing on the shoulders of someone else and reaping the benefit their sacrifices paid for is theft, thats your problem.

You keep driving narrow bodies around the desert in the shadow of Southwest on the cheap, because that was and has been your expectation and sue away.

You carefully avoided my question.

So, I'll ask again, assuming that furloughed East pilots were going to be recalled absent this merger (which is qustionable at best), where in their expectations were they going to be recalled directly to captain seats ahead of 1500+ other pilots?

I'm truly sorry about the hell you've been through in the past few years, I wouldn't wish it on anybody. But you can't expect the AWA pilots to compensate you for it. Meanwhile, you've beat the odds, been recalled from furlough, and are looking at one of the largest incremental increases in pay and work rules in the history of the airline industry. A part of that package, however, is the AWA pilots, who will not let your overblown sense of entitlement dictate what's fair and what's not.

Oh, and BTW, on May 1, 2005, driving narrow bodies around the desert was a MUCH better gig than was being 3 years on furlough from a twice-bankrupt liquidating carrier with no plan of reorganizaiton. I'm sure that in 1983 (the year AWA began operations), nobody at US Airways expected that AWA would be a better career 22 years later. But then again, in 1983, nobody at Pan Am, Eastern, or TWA would have thought that US Air would have been a better career either.

 

[P51Pilot]

So, I'll ask again, assuming that furloughed East pilots were going to be recalled absent this merger (which is qustionable at best), where in their expectations were they going to be recalled directly to captain seats ahead of 1500+ other pilots?

If the recall is to an aircraft based in DCA, BOS, LGA, PIT, PHL, or CLT then they are achieving exactly what their expectation was and any of the so called 1500 pilots you reference only have something to cry about if it was happening to a PHX or LAS captain position which is not the case. That carping comes from thinking you have a windfall in your grasp and not being able to exercise it.

 

[Phoenix]

.. That carping comes from thinking you have a windfall in your grasp and not being able to exercise it.

Agreed. The only beef the West has about Nic is that it ain't in force yet.

 

[sharktooth]

It's difficult for me to figure out how you can rationalize to yourself date-of-hire is fair when it would provide block-holding captain seats to pilots returning from furlough.

Do you have actual data or is this just another fear-mongering bs statement from your union?

Uh, conditions and restrictions that include fences, you know, what was originally proposed to nic. You'd have to play mind games on yourself to come up with what you quoted. If you really believe that, I'd like to see the data.

Do you have actual data or is this just another fear-mongering bs statement?

Sorry, but when you're proposing an integration method that replaces active AWA pilots with furloughed AAA pilots, THAT'S stealing.

That is not what he proposed. Stop with the lying. Nobody, east or west, wants anyone to lose their jobs.

Anyhow, the reason why USAPA is going to cost me money is NOT because of their proposed seniority integration (which has a minimal chance of success at best). The cost will be the countless lawsuits I pony up for, and the lack of a contract for many years to come.

Then you should have become an attorney, labor.

 

[Hawkhunter]

So, I'll ask again, assuming that furloughed East pilots were going to be recalled absent this merger (which is qustionable at best), where in their expectations were they going to be recalled directly to captain seats ahead of 1500+ other pilots?


I will answer for him. The furloughed pilots would not of been recalled directly to captain seats. We have had several mergers and not once was a Captain bumped from his seat. Why do you Westies hang on to that when in fact you wanted to put a 22 year East pilot who was never furloughed behind "Save Dave". You know in five years you will own this airline and that is your freakin windfall so dont give me crap about how you lost some numbers, look at the big picture You are all pissed because you cannot bid East yet, I know for a fact that some of you are all buched up because you cant steal that left seat. You people are rude and I am fed up with the likes of AWA320, Junebug, JJ and Aaron the idiot that gets a kick calling us Eastholes on the alpo web site I guess you will always sphew garbage like AWA bought US, We saved you, We tried to work out a deal ,blah blah blah. You Westoffs want a pissing contest?, you got one. Prater can kiss my a$$ he can force a vote but we will vote it down. It is going to take years before you Westoffs get our seats. Also, your little west base out East crap isnt going to work either we will shut this place down. Besides if you take our jobs that makes you guys a bunch of SCABS. That would be easy for you though, since you have done it before. Game on, Westoffs.

 

[Cactus737]

If the recall is to an aircraft based in DCA, BOS, LGA, PIT, PHL, or CLT then they are achieving exactly what their expectation was and any of the so called 1500 pilots you reference only have something to cry about if it was happening to a PHX or LAS captain position which is not the case. That carping comes from thinking you have a windfall in your grasp and not being able to exercise it.

You STILL didn't answer the question (no surprise).

USAPA wants to merge the lists by date-of-hire, and you're talking about a separate ops scenario. That brings "Dean" off of furlough ahead of 1500 or so AWA pilots. More importantly, Dean gets furloughed AFTER 1500 AWA pilots. The most junior furloughed AAA pilot was on property 18 months before being furloughed, and had been on furlough 3.5 years when the merger was announced. Yet because of his 2000 DOH, he gets recalled from furlough ahead of 2/3 of the AWA FO's, which means of course that he gets furloughed AFTER 2/3 of the AWA FO.

 

[Cactus737]

Do you have actual data or is this just another fear-mongering bs statement from your union?

Yes. Colello has a DOH of 7/18/88. With a DOH integration, Colello is senior to over 1500 AWA pilots. He didn't bring a job to the merger.

Uh, conditions and restrictions that include fences, you know, what was originally proposed to nic. You'd have to play mind games on yourself to come up with what you quoted. If you really believe that, I'd like to see the data.

I'm talking about USAPA, not the AAA MEC. But you're right, AAA did propose restrictions that gave the AAA pilots all of the upgrades (from attrition AND growth) and gives a useless 1-year furlough protection for some AWA pilots.

USAPA proposes a straight DOH integration, with no adjustements for length of service, correct?

Do you have actual data or is this just another fear-mongering bs statement?

Data from both certified seniority lists. Facts don't lie (which is why the arbitrator didn't agree with your MEC's proposal).

That is not what he proposed. Stop with the lying. Nobody, east or west, wants anyone to lose their jobs.
Then you should have become an attorney, labor.

No lying necessary, though you're defensive tone is very telling. If USAPA gets it's way, the Nicolau Award will be rejected and replaced with a DOH list. Which will cause pilots who were employed when the merger was announced to be furloughed before pilots who were furloughed when the merger was announced.

 

[Cactus737]

I will answer for him. The furloughed pilots would not have been recalled directly to captain seats. We have had several mergers and not once was a Captain bumped from his seat.

You're right, he would have to be offered an unbid vacancy when recalled from furlough correct? However, once the seat lock on his recall equipment had expired, he would be able to bid anything he can hold. Like - say - B757 PHX. And he'd fly to Hawaii with weekends off as a B-757 Captain ahead of 1500 AWA pilots.

Why do you Westies hang on to that when in fact you wanted to put a 22 year East pilot who was never furloughed behind "Save Dave".

Colello is below "Save Dave". Colello is an '88 hire who was furloughed almost 2 years before the merger was announced. And don't give me that crap about MDA, nobody buys it.

You know in five years you will own this airline and that is your freakin windfall so dont give me crap about how you lost some numbers, look at the big picture

By virtue of being a younger group, we will "inherit" the airline regardless of the integration method. Date-of-hire ensures that we don't inherit until you must junior furloughed guy gets his upgrade ahead of the most senior active AWA FO.

You are all pissed because you cannot bid East yet, I know for a fact that some of you are all buched up because you cant steal that left seat.

That's a fear grenade that YOUR union planted. Over 1200 of our pilots live in the state of Arizona, and I don't know of many who plan to move or commute.

You people are rude and I am fed up with the likes of AWA320, Junebug, JJ and Aaron the idiot that gets a kick calling us Eastholes on the alpo web site I guess you will always sphew garbage like AWA bought US,

Don't associate me with them, I'm trying to have a fact based discussion. And I don't participate on the ALPA boards.

We saved you,

That's about as true as the statement that the East is profitable and subsidizing the losses on the West.

We tried to work out a deal ,blah blah blah.

You think that's irrelevant?

You Westoffs want a pissing contest?, you got one.

No we don't, and we didn't start this - you did. But we aren't going to start around and be peed on either.

Prater can kiss my a$$ he can force a vote but we will vote it down. It is going to take years before you Westoffs get our seats. Also, your little west base out East crap isnt going to work either we will shut this place down.

You guys aren't capable of carrying out squat. 100 pilots call in sick? Yawn. Hardly put a dent in the company's stats.

 

[P51Pilot]

You STILL didn't answer the question (no surprise).

USAPA wants to merge the lists by date-of-hire, and you're talking about a separate ops scenario. That brings "Dean" off of furlough ahead of 1500 or so AWA pilots. More importantly, Dean gets furloughed AFTER 1500 AWA pilots. The most junior furloughed AAA pilot was on property 18 months before being furloughed, and had been on furlough 3.5 years when the merger was announced. Yet because of his 2000 DOH, he gets recalled from furlough ahead of 2/3 of the AWA FO's, which means of course that he gets furloughed AFTER 2/3 of the AWA FO.

USAPA wants DOH with conditions, restrictions, and fences. Thee fence could exist as it is now basically fencing the two sides apart for the next decade. Likewise, there could be a condition can to insure that furloughs come on which ever side of the fence might experience a RIF during that same period of time.

Maybe instead of keeping your jaw locked on the windfall you might release it a little and ask some questions and see if there is a solution outside of the ALPA disaster everyone knows and loves.

 

[EastUS]

By virtue of being a younger group, we will "inherit" the airline regardless of the integration method.

Over 1200 of our pilots live in the state of Arizona, and I don't know of many who plan to move or commute.

What's incomprehensible to me is that, given the above thoughts....WHY all the fuss out west over Nic? We out east hear nothing save "no windfall"..and variations on: "no one's going to move east"/etc. 'Tis a wee bit confusing to work through.

 

[Cactus737]

USAPA wants DOH with conditions, restrictions, and fences. Thee fence could exist as it is now basically fencing the two sides apart for the next decade. Likewise, there could be a condition can to insure that furloughs come on which ever side of the fence might experience a RIF during that same period of time.

So basically, USAPA invents a merger policy that uses the buzz words "date of hire" to intially gain support from AAA pilots (AWA pilots aren't allowed access to the website), yet there's no criteria or process to determine how conditions, restrictions, and fences are determined. Also, what's the point of having a date-of-hire list if your furloughing out of seniority order, etc?

Anyhow, I can imagine on each side furloughing as a result of it's own cuts, but I can only see USAPA going along with that as long as the cuts are coming from the West side. If the cuts came form the East side, then I'm sure the rhetoric would quickly switch of a "reverse seniority furlough".

Maybe instead of keeping your jaw locked on the windfall you might release it a little and ask some questions and see if there is a solution outside of the ALPA disaster everyone knows and loves.

Maybe if you quit avoiding the question, you wouldn't have to keep trying to dodge it. I'm not asking you about Nicolau, I'm asking you why you think date-of-hire is fair to AWA pilots.

The bottom line is that USAPA is out to screw AWA pilots. All of the non-answers you guys have posted here have further convinced me of that. I'd at least have some respect for you if you were honest about it. Your answers sort of remind me of the type of baloney that management puts out.

 

[flybynite]

Do you think Date of Hire unfair?

 

[AWA320]

Do you think Date of Hire unfair?

Between AAA and AWA?? Wtithout a doubt!!!