which will it be? the ta or term sheet?

[iluvaa]

But.... but.... but..... US Airways is offering you a better future! Or at least that's what I read in the press release from the unions last week...

F USair F AA

Im getting out of this hell hole of aviation

and I will fly southwest when I need to fly

 

[AA89]

But.... but.... but..... US Airways is offering you a better future! Or at least that's what I read in the press release from the unions last week...

Hard to tell how good or bad of a future it would be with USAir...........it is kind of a limited term sheet as far as details.
At first glance it looks ok for the line and TULE jobs saved but would that mean no increase in OSMs or would those jobs saved be added to the AA OSM ask?

And maybe a dumb question but I don't have the AA term sheet in front of me. Is AA's 401K match based on the same eligible earnings (base pay, license premiums and overtime)? Or just base pay?

 

[Dilligas]

But.... but.... but..... US Airways is offering you a better future! Or at least that's what I read in the press release from the unions last week...

The cold hard dispassionate fact of the matter is US Airways is offering you a better future. Many don't want to accept that statement as reality, but of the two options presently before you, which one is better? I understand that neither one is good, but of the two, which one is better?

The offers from US Airways are clearly superior for workers than what AA has made to you so far. It may not be all you want, it may have aspects to it that you dislike, but it's surely a better offer than what you have. You are in BK and the game changes and all of your old expectations of fairness will be shattered. I don't agree with it but I'm just stating what the circumstances are.

Don't interpret this as me beating the drum for Doug and pushing for the merger. I understand the roller coaster of emotions that the AA people are riding at this difficult time. My mind is not made up either for or against the merger idea. I have been through several mergers and they are not particularly enjoyable. When I look at this combination I see a lot of headaches and yet I do believe it will keep more AA and US people employed five years down the road than may happen otherwise.

Many people at AA seem to be looking down their nose at US Airways. I understand you are one of the proud legacy airlines, I respect your history, but I think many of the remarks are unfair. Many of the comments are cheap shots that no longer have much basis in reality but are easy to throw out there. Put aside your prejudices for a few moments and take a realistic look at all the options in front of you and make an intelligent assessment of the facts as opposed to an emotional one. US people are just like AA people, we come in and do the job, we #### and moan about management, we worry about the future, and we want a fair wage. We're more alike than not alike.

The AA workforce is fortunate to have a very unique situation present itself during your BK. None of the other airlines which made that trip through BK had an option to preserve jobs, and even come out with pay raises such as promised the FA's and pilots. It is unfortunate you are in BK and faced with losing jobs and cutbacks, but so far the changes I've read are not as severe as what other major airlines went through, and you have the added possibility of US saving some jobs.

When US filed, M&R took a 21% paycut right away, and another cut later on. Imagine your check reduced that drastically, and then another paycut on top of that, losing 3 weeks vacation, etc, etc, etc. BK is brutal and not fair.

As I have consistently stated in earlier posts, the severest cuts come from M&R and fleet. I don't like it, but historically it is the nature of this corporate beast. The unfortunate trend to MRO's and subcontracting the ramp at smaller stations is not going away. The prudent approach would be how do we go through this and survive with as many jobs intact as we can, because these changes are coming whether anyone wants them or not.

Good luck to all at AA and US.

 

[Dilligas]

F USair F AA

Im getting out of this hell hole of aviation

and I will fly southwest when I need to fly

Does that mean you'll be changing your screen name? :blink:

Just pickin' with ya... I understand your sentiment, not a bad idea.

Feel the LUV.

 

[Hopeful]

The cold hard dispassionate fact of the matter is US Airways is offering you a better future. Many don't want to accept that statement as reality, but of the two options presently before you, which one is better? I understand that neither one is good, but of the two, which one is better?

From what I read, the US deal is not all that good...Some short term solutions...better yet "promises."

The offers from US Airways are clearly superior for workers than what AA has made to you so far. It may not be all you want, it may have aspects to it that you dislike, but it's surely a better offer than what you have. You are in BK and the game changes and all of your old expectations of fairness will be shattered. I don't agree with it but I'm just stating what the circumstances are.

Superior? I would not use that term.

Don't interpret this as me beating the drum for Doug and pushing for the merger. I understand the roller coaster of emotions that the AA people are riding at this difficult time. My mind is not made up either for or against the merger idea. I have been through several mergers and they are not particularly enjoyable. When I look at this combination I see a lot of headaches and yet I do believe it will keep more AA and US people employed five years down the road than may happen otherwise.

Many people at AA seem to be looking down their nose at US Airways. I understand you are one of the proud legacy airlines, I respect your history, but I think many of the remarks are unfair. Many of the comments are cheap shots that no longer have much basis in reality but are easy to throw out there. Put aside your prejudices for a few moments and take a realistic look at all the options in front of you and make an intelligent assessment of the facts as opposed to an emotional one. US people are just like AA people, we come in and do the job, we #### and moan about management, we worry about the future, and we want a fair wage. We're more alike than not alike.

They're looking down their nose the same way they do the current situaton.
The two worst airlines merging is not a good thing in any aspect.
Unlike Algebra where 2 negatives = a positve, two bottom of the barrel airlines create a huge bottom of the barrel airline.

The AA workforce is fortunate to have a very unique situation present itself during your BK. None of the other airlines which made that trip through BK had an option to preserve jobs, and even come out with pay raises such as promised the FA's and pilots. It is unfortunate you are in BK and faced with losing jobs and cutbacks, but so far the changes I've read are not as severe as what other major airlines went through, and you have the added possibility of US saving some jobs.

When US filed, M&R took a 21% paycut right away, and another cut later on. Imagine your check reduced that drastically, and then another paycut on top of that, losing 3 weeks vacation, etc, etc, etc. BK is brutal and not fair.

Wait, we haven't seen the TWU T/A.

As I have consistently stated in earlier posts, the severest cuts come from M&R and fleet. I don't like it, but historically it is the nature of this corporate beast. The unfortunate trend to MRO's and subcontracting the ramp at smaller stations is not going away. The prudent approach would be how do we go through this and survive with as many jobs intact as we can, because these changes are coming whether anyone wants them or not.

So US' promise of saving M+R jobs will be temporary in my opinion.

Good luck to all at AA and US.

Yea...We're done!

 

[Hopeful]

There isn't a spin doctor around who can convince me that the US deal is any better than the TWU T/A nor is it any better than the term sheets.

 

[Dilligas]

From what I read, the US deal is not all that good...Some short term dsolutions...better yet "promises."

Superior? I would not use that term.

Yea...We're done!

You are missing my point.

You have two, unequal offers.

One has to be "better", or "superior" to the other, even if both are a POS!

If you think AA is making a better offer, or abrogation is a better reality, I'm curious as to what parts support that belief.

 

[Hopeful]

You are missing my point.

You have two, unequal offers.

One has to be "better", or "superior" to the other, even if both are a POS!

If you think AA is making a better offer, or abrogation is a better reality, I'm curious as to what parts support that belief.

Technically you are correct...But the term "superior" when applied to a bad offer is an oxymoron in a sense.

Have you ever thought we would be describing POS offers as superior?

Man, we are so doomed!

As far as abrogation being preferred. i do have to see what the T/A says.
Just because the TWU says the LBO will be better than the term sheets....I believe they are only saying so as it applies to jobs saved...and NOT medical costs, pay, and other benefits and workrules.

 

[TWU informer]

As far as abrogation being preferred. i do have to see what the T/A says.
Just because the TWU says the LBO will be better than the term sheets....I believe they are only saying so as it applies to jobs saved...and NOT medical costs, pay, and other benefits and workrules.

I think you will find that unless you are old enough to retire, or about to get laid-off, then you, like me are about fund the soldout deal for them to have a better option and yet there is nothing but concessions in this for you.

What pisses me off is the TWU/AA teAAm is always looking for certain groups to "buyoff" to get a deal done.

Last T/A, for the first time ever, I was in the group being paid to vote YES, and boy did I ever vote YES. But only because I know how the TWU represents, and being in the group for the first time, I was bought just like others will be this time around. That T/A was sadly shot down, and now I am back to being in the group paying instead of the group receiving. Most of those that voted NO, are much worse off now also, which is what I said all along would happen.

 

[Dilligas]

Technically you are correct...But the term "superior" when applied to a bad offer is an oxymoron in a sense.

Have you ever thought we would be describing POS offers as superior?

Man, we are so doomed!

As far as abrogation being preferred. i do have to see what the T/A says.
Just because the TWU says the LBO will be better than the term sheets....I believe they are only saying so as it applies to jobs saved...and NOT medical costs, pay, and other benefits and workrules.

LOL, I hear ya.

Not to beat the semantics horse but I didn't say it was a superior offer. I said it was superior to AA's offer. So I ain't no moron, oxy.

Everything changes in BK, workrules, medical coverage, pay, yada yada yada. I do hope your representation was able to mitigate some of the more severe demands of AA.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

Just because the TWU says the LBO will be better than the term sheets....I believe they are only saying so as it applies to jobs saved...and NOT medical costs, pay, and other benefits and workrules.

The twu is simply trying to protect the international's income and lifestyle.

Granted - saving jobs is an honorable thing to do but only if it can be done without giving away the farm simply to keep the dues flowing in as the twu has done since I was hired in 1990.

 

[Frank Szabo]

I will say this, if we ultimately get a trap door of merger that will save 6000+ jobs over AA's plan, I'm not real sure I'll care how we got there, just that fact that got there will be what matters most those 6000+.

"Saving" all those jobs with no work for them is what got us here - but that's neither here nor there as AA/AMR/twu will still run the place for their personal benefit as always.

 

[TWU informer]

"Saving" all those jobs with no work for them is what got us here - but that's neither here nor there as AA/AMR/twu will still run the place for their personal benefit as always.

Exactly...

Only this time they are going to add in a massive amount of skill ability lowering to the equation.

As hard as it might be living under these incredible concessions, the best thing to do is spend the next 4-5 years preparing for the complete failure of overhaul. These ignorant fools cannot see they destroy everything long term, in exchange for short term bean counter thinking.

Look at your shop's skill level right now Frank, compared to 8 years ago. And now think about the same thing happening across every hangar dock.

Complete inability to compete is coming, not because of cost, but because of lack of ability to the get the jobs done successfully for the amount they are willing to pay.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Exactly...

Only this time they are going to add in a massive amount of skill ability lowering to the equation.

As hard as it might be living under these incredible concessions, the best thing to do is spend the next 4-5 years preparing for the complete failure of overhaul. These ignorant fools cannot see they destroy everthing long term, in exchange for short term bean counter thinking.

Look at your shop's skill level right now Frank, compared to 8 years ago. And now think about the same thing happening across every hangar dock.

Complete inability to compete is coming, not because of cost, but because of lack of ability to the get the jobs done successfully for the amount they are willing to pay.

My shop isn't exactly one to use as an example (either good or bad) as our actual trade is not taught in any school and due to that it takes years to learn, but yes - since I hired on the work has gone from tooling to crap jobs. There are a couple diesets floating about that manufacturing will roach out on occasion that "have to" be fixed the day prior to their demise but that's the extent of the tooling-type work - most of that is sent outside. That's why we get sent out to the hangers on a regular basis to do what the mekaniks can't or don't want to do. I've always wondered how the "I can't do my job" excuse would have flown in years past before the PC crowd took over aviation.

Back to your comment - that won't matter a bit as all that's required is a kid fresh out of a "All&Purpose" license school they paid thousands for and the maintenance manuals to make a great mekanik - it's all written down so it's easy - right? All that remains is that pesky certificate requirement the twu and company will waive in a heartbeat.

 

[TWU informer]

My shop isn't exactly one to use as an example (either good or bad) as our actual trade is not taught in any school and due to that it takes years to learn, but yes - since I hired on the work has gone from tooling to crap jobs.

That is exactly my point Frank.

Your shop now has A&P's that were RIF'd, stood no chance of getting their license premium back, so they went to a 9 month Tech School, got a certifcate and are via TWU Upgrade program, now in the Tool and Die shop. I wont name then, you know who they are. But they do wear TWU shirts and are thus considered "good union members".

The reason your work is now outsourced is because your shop can no longer do it.

I used to go to your shop and get real machinist to help design tooling for problems we were having.
Now I cannot even get a quote on a blue print/tooling job so we buy it from the OEM.

Maybe your view on the inside is different, but when AA goes from guys who could design tooling and build it, to guys that are only good at taking pictures of their turds in the toilet for a contest of comparing. Well, then there is a severe down grade from my point of view as a customer of your shop.

Just my opinion, and view from the outside.