which will it be? the ta or term sheet?

[Frank Szabo]

That is exactly my point Frank.

Your shop now has A&P's that were RIF'd, stood no chance of getting their license premium back, so they went to a 9 month Tech School, got a certifcate and are via TWU Upgrade program, now in the Tool and Die shop. I wont name then, you know who they are. But they do wear TWU shirts and are thus considered "good union members".

The reason your work is now outsourced is because your shop can no longer do it.

I used to go to your shop and get real machinist to help design tooling for problems we were having.
Now I cannot even get a quote on a blue print/tooling job so we buy it from the OEM.

Maybe your view on the inside is different, but when AA goes from guys who could design tooling and build it, to guys that are only good at taking pictures of their turds in the toilet for a contest of comparing. Well, then there is a severe down grade from my point of view as a customer of your shop.

Just my opinion, and view from the outside.

It's just the way of the world, Dave. Actual knowledge is sneered at while education designed to remove all of one's common sense is lauded.

I'm not going to get into my opinions as, being an employee of AA, I'm not certain to what degree my right of free speech has been abridged by the two entities we have working in concert against us.

 

[TWU informer]

It's just the way of the world, Dave. Actual knowledge is sneered at while education designed to remove all of one's common sense is lauded.

I'm not going to get into my opinions as, being an employee of AA, I'm not certain to what degree my right of free speech has been abridged by the two entities we have working in concert against us.

I understand.

My point on this is that this is what happens when you give concessions to save jobs.

Those jobs that these folks were suppose to be trained in had not enough work to keep them around.
So the TWU and AA places them anywhere there is work without regard for their ability to do the work.

Hence, my statement that they are about to destroy ALL of the jobs with this latest plan of concessions for jobs.

 

[Duke787]

When AA implements their term sheet, does anybody else think that AA management will be exposed as the mis managers of a once great airline?

AA will not be able to blame the unions if they get everything want, again (think 2003).

 

[Vortilon]

After looking at the US Airways offer, I really see nothing in it that benefits us. it's obviously all about the TWU maintaining headcount at least temporarily. So I would have to vote NO on their offer as well.

 

[Bob Owens]

Hard to tell how good or bad of a future it would be with USAir...........it is kind of a limited term sheet as far as details.
At first glance it looks ok for the line and TULE jobs saved but would that mean no increase in OSMs or would those jobs saved be added to the AA OSM ask?

And maybe a dumb question but I don't have the AA term sheet in front of me. Is AA's 401K match based on the same eligible earnings (base pay, license premiums and overtime)? Or just base pay?

Pensionable earnings, no OT included.

 

[odie01]

After looking at the US Airways offer, I really see nothing in it that benefits us. it's obviously all about the TWU maintaining headcount at least temporarily. So I would have to vote NO on their offer as well.

This is what I just received from 567 along with the US Air term sheet.

Although USAir has committed to save jobs and not file to reject the CBAs, these term sheets commit to the 3/22/2012 1113c filing (which is less favorable than the Last Best Offer we will be voting on…)
In effect a USAir merger will give USAir pretty much everything AA was asking for in the 1113c filing.
Gary Moffitt
Legislative Director
TWU Local 567

 

[Bob Owens]

Once again, an important factor is being left out. What has been stated is that a hell no will provide us (hopefully a better Union) to have the ability to continue to negotiate and try to gain back some of our losses WITHIN THE 6 YEAR TIMEFRAME. A yes vote LOCKS US IN for the 6 years.

At least 6 more years, That makes it 10.

 

[TWU informer]

This is what I just received from 567 along with the US Air term sheet.

Although USAir has committed to save jobs and not file to reject the CBAs, these term sheets commit to the 3/22/2012 1113c filing (which is less favorable than the Last Best Offer we will be voting on…)
In effect a USAir merger will give USAir pretty much everything AA was asking for in the 1113c filing.
Gary Moffitt
Legislative Director
TWU Local 567

Ladies and Gentlemen we now have our FEAR tool.

Let the manipulation begin.

Do not like what you are voting on, fear the other option worse.

Same plan that was used against AMFA.
i.e. "TWU might suck, but AMFA is much worse"

These are the only thing TWU gets from the political arena. How to manipulate voters.

Never can prove what the TWU has done for you.
Never can prove why their agreements are good for you.

Always the alternative is much worse! Pathetic Representation

 

[Hopeful]

This is what I just received from 567 along with the US Air term sheet.

Although USAir has committed to save jobs and not file to reject the CBAs, these term sheets commit to the 3/22/2012 1113c filing (which is less favorable than the Last Best Offer we will be voting on…)
In effect a USAir merger will give USAir pretty much everything AA was asking for in the 1113c filing.
Gary Moffitt
Legislative Director
TWU Local 567

AFTER READING THIS.......WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WANTS TO KEEP THE TWU?

 

[tech2101]

My shop isn't exactly one to use as an example (either good or bad) as our actual trade is not taught in any school and due to that it takes years to learn, but yes - since I hired on the work has gone from tooling to crap jobs. There are a couple diesets floating about that manufacturing will roach out on occasion that "have to" be fixed the day prior to their demise but that's the extent of the tooling-type work - most of that is sent outside.

I know this is off-topic but take a look at this thread. I would be interested in your views/knowledge on this Frank.

My link

 

[Bob Owens]

The cold hard dispassionate fact of the matter is US Airways is offering you a better future. Many don't want to accept that statement as reality, but of the two options presently before you, which one is better? I understand that neither one is good, but of the two, which one is better?

The offers from US Airways are clearly superior for workers than what AA has made to you so far. It may not be all you want, it may have aspects to it that you dislike, but it's surely a better offer than what you have. You are in BK and the game changes and all of your old expectations of fairness will be shattered. I don't agree with it but I'm just stating what the circumstances are.

Don't interpret this as me beating the drum for Doug and pushing for the merger. I understand the roller coaster of emotions that the AA people are riding at this difficult time. My mind is not made up either for or against the merger idea. I have been through several mergers and they are not particularly enjoyable. When I look at this combination I see a lot of headaches and yet I do believe it will keep more AA and US people employed five years down the road than may happen otherwise.

Many people at AA seem to be looking down their nose at US Airways. I understand you are one of the proud legacy airlines, I respect your history, but I think many of the remarks are unfair. Many of the comments are cheap shots that no longer have much basis in reality but are easy to throw out there. Put aside your prejudices for a few moments and take a realistic look at all the options in front of you and make an intelligent assessment of the facts as opposed to an emotional one. US people are just like AA people, we come in and do the job, we #### and moan about management, we worry about the future, and we want a fair wage. We're more alike than not alike.

The AA workforce is fortunate to have a very unique situation present itself during your BK. None of the other airlines which made that trip through BK had an option to preserve jobs, and even come out with pay raises such as promised the FA's and pilots. It is unfortunate you are in BK and faced with losing jobs and cutbacks, but so far the changes I've read are not as severe as what other major airlines went through, and you have the added possibility of US saving some jobs.

When US filed, M&R took a 21% paycut right away, and another cut later on. Imagine your check reduced that drastically, and then another paycut on top of that, losing 3 weeks vacation, etc, etc, etc. BK is brutal and not fair.

As I have consistently stated in earlier posts, the severest cuts come from M&R and fleet. I don't like it, but historically it is the nature of this corporate beast. The unfortunate trend to MRO's and subcontracting the ramp at smaller stations is not going away. The prudent approach would be how do we go through this and survive with as many jobs intact as we can, because these changes are coming whether anyone wants them or not.

Good luck to all at AA and US.

Did USAIR have $4 billion in the bank? NO, USAIR was in real danger of going C-7. They had DIP financing and they were just trying to survive.

AA is demanding that labor give back $1.25 billion so they can make $3 billion a year in prtofits. So in reality AA could be the most profitable airline without even touching its labor contracts.

Big difference between AA and US BKs.

Even with all that, in July their hourly wage will be more than ours, they pay less for Medical, they get double the amount of Holidays and double the amount extra pay for the holidays if worked, In fact the Holiday pay already puts their annual earnings above ours, they get more vaction and still get doubletime. So after two trips through BK they are still better off than we are.

 

[Hopeful]

Did USAIR have $4 billion in the bank? NO, USAIR was in real danger of going C-7. They had DIP financing and they were just trying to survive.

AA is demanding that labor give back $1.25 billion so they can make $3 billion a year in prtofits. So in reality AA could be the most profitable airline without even touching its labor contracts.

Big difference between AA and US BKs.

Even with all that, in July their hourly wage will be more than ours, they pay less for Medical, they get double the amount of Holidays and double the amount extra pay for the holidays if worked, In fact the Holiday pay already puts their annual earnings above ours, they get more vaction and still get doubletime. So after two trips through BK they are still better off than we are.

Bob, you are correct in many a discussion..But you are spitting into the wind...The BK judge, I fear, will agree to abrogate the contracts...regardless of union arguments.

Could you possibly find out what US guys are going to get in terms of their new contract? Is it $.50 an hout or is it $5.00...
I'd like to see some numbers.

 

[Bob Owens]

I've been wondering about this also. I am not sure that "last best offer" is the actual term used. But what else can it mean?
I would imagine that the LBO is what gets imposed. But I dont know what the BK law states. But the union did state in yesterday's update that if the t/a is voted down on, what the company imposes will be worse. Did the union attorney spell it out for them?

The company has given us several "last best offers" none of them were the last and none of them were the best

 

[TWU informer]

The company has given us several "last best offers" none of them were the last and none of them were the best

That's funny, I don't care who you are!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

TWU is telling us that the terms entered at the court proceeding are the ones they can impose and that they are worse than LBO.

isnt this why they are there? to try and get less harsher terms imposed? so what is the truth does anyone know? is it the last and best offer or the term sheet? and how do we find out?

Bob Owens do you have an answer?

The difference is that if you vote YES you are stuck with it for 6 years, if you vote NO you are not.
We need to vote NO, we continue to negotiate until we get a deal.
You have to remember that the International does not have to live under the deal. If we vote YES they no longer have to spend all the money they are spending on Lawyers economists etc and their dues flow is secure for another six years. If the contract is abroigated then they have no way of knowing who will continue to pay dues and no way to enforce it,So from their perspective a bad deal for us is better than no Article 38.

Expect the TWU to give you every reason to vote YES then say they arent telling you what to do.

You have to live under it VOTE NO.