USAirways pilots labor thread 7/23-7-29

[Tiger 1050]

So HP if that is your response then don't fault us for fighting ...... what has happened in the past we can't change, but we can continue to fight because we think it's right. The award in Many people's mind's was flawed. not in yours I understand that. but we will contiue the fight to mitigatge the effects of a truly crazy award. and furloughs we brough to this compnay? all of us were back before Nic issued his award.

Flyer,
I'd like to point out that during the arbitration hearings it was clearly articulated that AAA was in a much more dire financial situation. This, of course, lead Mr Nicolau to believe that "your attrition" was, shall we say, less than likely to be a benefit to you had these two airlines remained separate. This is not to say AWA was in stellar shape. To the contrary. However for you to argue that this attrition is the sole possession of the east is fallacy. Even in the best of times there is no guarantee in this business. Nobody really knows what the future holds. In fact we continue to look at the past to get a glimpse of what the future may hold never realizing that this career and the very industry itself has fundamentally changed. Somehow we all have to let go of the past. The "well my father had this kind of career" is simply refusing to acknowledge the reality of today's airline pilot job.

Flawed may be your subjective opinion, but your opinion falls short of an objective evaluation. More than one entity has agreed. I am sorry that you have had so many ups and downs in your career. I am currently in a low spot my self. I would not wish it on anybody. So I am left with just one question. Why, with your experience, did you not seek to go elsewhere? You would have been better off at almost any other major carrier! US Airways is dark disease in our industry and I, for one, am thankful that I was pushed out. I do not plan to return if I can help it. 'Course that's even if LCC exists in the future...

Good day to you.

 

[HPDriver]

...but we can continue to fight because we think it's right.

What and where has is gotten you?

 

[goodfellow]

What and where has is gotten you?

Just a thought, when we are divided no one wins but corporate? Only thing I know about flying is through my private liscense, but I have 30 years with whatever company we work for and we need to stick together more now than ever. I wish the best for all and hope we eventually get our shirt strait! GF

 

[V1cut]

Flyer,
I'd like to point out that during the arbitration hearings it was clearly articulated that AAA was in a much more dire financial situation. This, of course, lead Mr Nicolau to believe that "your attrition" was, shall we say, less than likely to be a benefit to you had these two airlines remained separate. This is not to say AWA was in stellar shape. To the contrary. However for you to argue that this attrition is the sole possession of the east is fallacy. Even in the best of times there is no guarantee in this business. Nobody really knows what the future holds. In fact we continue to look at the past to get a glimpse of what the future may hold never realizing that this career and the very industry itself has fundamentally changed. Somehow we all have to let go of the past. The "well my father had this kind of career" is simply refusing to acknowledge the reality of today's airline pilot job.

Flawed may be your subjective opinion, but your opinion falls short of an objective evaluation. More than one entity has agreed. I am sorry that you have had so many ups and downs in your career. I am currently in a low spot my self. I would not wish it on anybody. So I am left with just one question. Why, with your experience, did you not seek to go elsewhere? You would have been better off at almost any other major carrier! US Airways is dark disease in our industry and I, for one, am thankful that I was pushed out. I do not plan to return if I can help it. 'Course that's even if LCC exists in the future...

Good day to you.

I seem to be in forever edit-mode, so I don't know if this will post.

I note the stepped-up west rhetoric of late..

I'll say this about Nic: YOU CAN'T PLACE RELATIVE PERCEIVED FINANCIAL STRENGTH IN THE EQUATION.

why? because then any staff accountant can "swing the numbers" (as they always do) to disadvantage an employee group. Seniority has NOTHING to do with a financial statement.

NOTHING.

The company plays the 'finances game" all year long depending on what they hope to achieve. This cannot ever be correlated to a seniority issue, for obvious reasons. Seniority is not a cash balance.

The 190 "play" by Parker is just that...play.

Know why?

He already knows he will lose the RJ case.

 

[Barrister]

Flyer,
I'd like to point out that during the arbitration hearings it was clearly articulated that AAA was in a much more dire financial situation. This, of course, lead Mr Nicolau to believe that "your attrition" was, shall we say, less than likely to be a benefit to you had these two airlines remained separate. This is not to say AWA was in stellar shape. To the contrary. However for you to argue that this attrition is the sole possession of the east is fallacy. Even in the best of times there is no guarantee in this business. Nobody really knows what the future holds. In fact we continue to look at the past to get a glimpse of what the future may hold never realizing that this career and the very industry itself has fundamentally changed. Somehow we all have to let go of the past. The "well my father had this kind of career" is simply refusing to acknowledge the reality of today's airline pilot job.

Flawed may be your subjective opinion, but your opinion falls short of an objective evaluation. More than one entity has agreed. I am sorry that you have had so many ups and downs in your career. I am currently in a low spot my self. I would not wish it on anybody. So I am left with just one question. Why, with your experience, did you not seek to go elsewhere? You would have been better off at almost any other major carrier! US Airways is dark disease in our industry and I, for one, am thankful that I was pushed out. I do not plan to return if I can help it. 'Course that's even if LCC exists in the future...

Tiger 1050, you are dead wrong there is a guarantee in this business and that is when you turn 65 you are gone and those below you move up one. That is why you will never get it, and this place will make Northwest Republic look like childhood sweethearts.i

Good day to you.

 

[cleardirect]

See, there ya go again highlighting why the NO vote will rule. Not only will the typical West F/O upgrade YEARS
before they ordinarily would have by capturing the East attrition but they will fly Captain for years longer than they would have had we not merged while the U copilots will NEVER upgrade.

Not sure what you mean by this. How long do you think the typical upgrade was at AWA before the merger?

NIC obviously did not care that he went straight ratio with a company that had a average age of 55 versus 35.

This is part of your confusion. Don't know where you got that number. But the average age of AWA pilots is 47 not 35. Makes a big difference.

Now you get the big NO vote. AND if I may add this really ain't about the West guys. As far as I am concerned the West guys are not the issue. It truly is not personal. My disgust is with an 80 year old guy who penalyzed the very people who saved this airline from it's own demise by giving up so much. Consider that by the time NIC made his ruling 500 furloughrd guys on the bottom were back flying. I have ZERO amimosity against the West guys. NIC on the other hand is an idiot. The West not have done, nor will they ever do anything to me. Niclolau is the idiot the West just benefitted from it.

At least you understand who made the list. Many east guys somehow blame the west for imposing a list.

Ask yourself this question. Why did 500 guys come back? Without the merger where 500 guys coming back in 2005, 2006? The Nicolau did not come out until two years after the merger. You do know about the PID right? That locks the time for the merger. So if 500 come back that is the effect of the merger not the what was happening.

 

[cleardirect]

I've never posted here and probably won't post again, but wanted to give my opinion. This whole thing is a mess and the behavior of both sides is like children.

I do have a problem with the Nicalau award I'm an East pilot. Hired in 89. Furloughed 93-97 then Back from 97-2002. Then gone again from 2002-2007.

What bothers me is the attrition that the east brought to the merger is now if Nicalau (big if) is implemented is going to mostly go to the west. I've been thru hell and have 12 years of active service with this company. What I've been waiting for for all these years is the 250-300 retirments that the East is going to soon have. 65 slowed that down by 5 years, but we are only 3 years away from that happening and those jobs should of gone to the EAST. So now with NIC they get diluted .... That is the part that is not fair and I have a problem with. I've put 20 years on and off into this company and still am a RSV..... The gold was upon us until this award stole it from us.

why should someone who had a few years with their compnay take attrition that was ours?

I also think the resolve is as strong as ever to not accept the NIC.

best to all

This is an old argument. The east believes that your attrition is more valuable than it really is. You point to attrition but fail to balance that with furloughs.

If you are having trouble understanding this. Pick up a copy of the NWA/DAL merger award. Read it completely. This is a third party deal so there should be no emotion in reading and understanding the arguments. Read it through including the footnotes. Arbitrator Block(sp) explains his reasoning for the panel’s decisions.

Many of the arguments are the same as here.

As far as your attrition. If you look at the Nicolau for more than your spot on the list. You will see that the F/O’s are slotted in 2/1. Two east pilots then one west pilot. There were only a total of about 800 west pilots when this started.

Using your numbers of 250 to 300 per year. You also have to include west attrition. You do realize that we have attrition too right? About 50 per year. So we are between 300- 350 per year for the company. If Nicolau had placed all of the AWA F/O’s senior to the east it would have been a delay of less than three years. At 2/1 the maximum delay is 1.6 years.
The math is straight forward. 1500 active east F/O’s 250 per year. 6 years to upgrade. 2300 total F/O’s 300 per year 7.6 years. Less than two years is what it would have been. We are going on 5 years now. What would 1.6 years cost compared to 5+ possibly 7-8 years?

Now that is figuring if every F/O takes the first upgrade available. We know that is not true. Skiles can hold captain but CHOSES to sit in the right seat. So your argument is false. Find out what the arbitrators thought of the attrition at NWA.

You can resolve all you want not to accept the Nicolau. But it is in place and will be in any contract on this property going forward.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Barrister,
I almost missed your reply there...

Regarding retirements, well let's just say your not recognizing the reality of our industry right now. The industry is shrinking! Tell me how is it that AAA had 20+ year F/O's? Surely 20+ years yielded sufficient retirements to move pilots up the list, yes? Hmmm. That pretty much illustrates my point. There is NO guarantee. Period.

 

[Barrister]

Barrister,
I almost missed your reply there...

Regarding retirements, well let's just say your not recognizing the reality of our industry right now. The industry is shrinking! Tell me how is it that AAA had 20+ year F/O's? Surely 20+ years yielded sufficient retirements to move pilots up the list, yes? Hmmm. That pretty much illustrates my point. There is NO guarantee. Period.

They were moving up the list until the ret. age was changed to 65. Why don't we just have a nice long wait and then vote.

 

[Tiger 1050]

They were moving up the list until the ret. age was changed to 65. Why don't we just have a nice long wait and then vote.

Well I don't work here anymore...and it seems doubtful I'd ever want to come back if offered the opportunity. So I'll have to pass on the vote.

But to counter your point how many 20+ year F/O's were on property the day BEFORE the age changed to 65?

 

[Tiger 1050]

I seem to be in forever edit-mode, so I don't know if this will post.

I note the stepped-up west rhetoric of late..

I'll say this about Nic: YOU CAN'T PLACE RELATIVE PERCEIVED FINANCIAL STRENGTH IN THE EQUATION.

why? because then any staff accountant can "swing the numbers" (as they always do) to disadvantage an employee group. Seniority has NOTHING to do with a financial statement.

NOTHING.

The company plays the 'finances game" all year long depending on what they hope to achieve. This cannot ever be correlated to a seniority issue, for obvious reasons. Seniority is not a cash balance.

The 190 "play" by Parker is just that...play.

Know why?

He already knows he will lose the RJ case.

Well I don't necessarily disagree with the main thrust of your point however there has to be some metric to measure one entity against the other. Traditionally one metric has been financial performance. I also believe it's not just "cooking the books" that lead to the place AAA was at the time of the merger. Maybe there was some element of fancy accounting but I think the SEC keeps a pretty tight hold on companies. So in reality I believe it's fair to say that the big picture of AAA at the time was pretty negative no matter how you look at it.

I believe the 190 issue is to raise capital to improve the cash position. With out it the company may not find the financing it'll surely need in the not too distant future. I wouldn't really call it a "play" per se as much as I believe Parker is trying to be as positive as he can regarding the media and the Wall Street pundits. Anything negative today let's the sharks know there's blood in the water. Sorry to say but there will be more unfortunate furloughs. Sadly the current management team has no vision and no skill to execute if they did. AAA will continue to suffer as always. I am so glad to be gone...

Have a good one.

 

[HPDriver]

I'll say this about Nic: YOU CAN'T PLACE RELATIVE PERCEIVED FINANCIAL STRENGTH IN THE EQUATION.

It doesn't matter what you think. Its what the arbitrator thinks that matters.

 

[N924PS]

Examples?

The FFDO that discharged his HK44 through the side of an Airbus....in flight.

The F/O still doesn't hear well in his left ear from the loud report the weapon made when accidentally fired.

 

[Beancounter]

See, there ya go again highlighting why the NO vote will rule. Not only will the typical West F/O upgrade YEARS
before they ordinarily would have by capturing the East attrition but they will fly Captain for years longer than they would have had we not merged while the U copilots will NEVER upgrade.

NIC obviously did not care that he went straight ratio with a company that had a average age of 55 versus 35. Now you get the big NO vote. AND if I may add this really ain't about the West guys. As far as I am concerned the West guys are not the issue. It truly is not personal. My disgust is with an 80 year old guy who penalyzed the very people who saved this airline from it's own demise by giving up so much. Consider that by the time NIC made his ruling 500 furloughrd guys on the bottom were back flying. I have ZERO amimosity against the West guys. NIC on the other hand is an idiot. The West not have done, nor will they ever do anything to me. Niclolau is the idiot the West just benefitted from it.

I think 35 years old would probably be one of the youngest pilots here. You have to realize that the merger took AWA from hiring 20 a month to total stagnation, so we've all been getting older. Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that merger or not the hiring wouldn't have stayed at 20 a month. As far as furloughed pilots being back on property the NIC was based on a snapshot taken at the begining of the merger. None of those pilots that came back would have been recalled had the merger not happened.

 

[exB717Flyer]

My disgust is with an 80 year old guy who penalyzed the very people who saved this airline from it's own demise by giving up so much.

Your disgust is misplaced.