US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[A320 Driver]

usapa is guilty, that does not make the judge biased.

Yeah right. That's what the judge said...before the case ever WENT to the jury.

New judge, OUTSIDE of your neighborhood. That is the only way it could be fair this time around. You afraid of that? The facts won't stand on their own merit?

If you are so supremely confidant, then support it being tried somewhere else. But you won't do that, will you? Last time that happened, YOU LOST!

If USAPA goes down in flames, I won't lose any sleep over it, but it infuriates me to no end when I perceive this kind of partiality. No difference here than with any other politician.

Driver B)

 

[Pi brat]

What is their crime?

Not letting you steal their job.

I believe the majority go to work to make money, not entertain your fantasy of rewriting the seniority list, and will soon say enough is enough.

There you go putting words in my mouth again. If you are going to spout this stuff you really need to pay attention. I have never wanted ANY of their jobs. I'm waiting for that day when that silent majority speaks, I've seen NO evidence of it so far, besides you and 924PS on here.

 

[Pi brat]

USAPA started this fire by attempting to steal from the West and it was fueled by Integrity lacking pilots on the East who bought into the scheme. Enjoy the mess you've created for yourselves.

USAPA = Stepping over dollars for dimes. .10, .20, .30 ...

It's easy to not do the right thing when you have a villain like USAPA to say "they are worse!", isn't it? At least get it right-Nicolau started this. The east did just what the west did in the beginning, it presented a proposal that put their pilots in the best light. Nothing more and nothing less and certainly nothing sinister. For all the proclamations of integrity, it is forgotten that the west never offered any great deal that the east couldn't refuse before arbitration. Put it out there, I can't find it, what was the west's last offer going into arbitration?

 

[BoeingBoy]

It's easy to not do the right thing when you have a villain like USAPA to say "they are worse!", isn't it?

Reminds one of using ALPA as the devil incarnate... Everything was "their" fault.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Reminds one of using ALPA as the devil incarnate... Everything was "their" fault.

Jim

Absolutely, and they were wrong too.

 

[hp_fa]

Yeah right. That's what the judge said...before the case ever WENT to the jury.

New judge, OUTSIDE of your neighborhood. That is the only way it could be fair this time around. You afraid of that? The facts won't stand on their own merit?

May I remind you what happened when USAPA brought a case in North Carolina?

 

[RSVP767]

Are you sure you weren't hired yesterday? You'll have to explain how someone - let's just say #5 on the East seniority list - retiring while out on long term medical provides movement for anyone since he doesn't leave a vacancy behind when he retires. Note: this ignores the two rather long periods when even active line pilot attrition didn't create movement for those junior - US just shrank.

Yes, someone retiring off Medical leave provides no movement when they retire. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. That movement was already realized when that pilot went out on Medical and did not return. Speaking from a standpoint of the 'Seniority List', i.e.; the 'list of names', a pilot's name does not effectively leave the list until retirement. That is when you see movement in the 'list of names', the actual movement may come early, as you pointed out, when someone leaves due to long term medical. For that matter, it's safe to assume you will see more 'early movement' from medical leaves on the East given our demographic. As for your note, yes, that is what happened and yes it could happen again. My model assumes a static (no growth, no shrink) senario.....pretty much what we are seeing and can expect for some time going forward. You, nor I, have the magic crystal ball to nail down the future. I think we can agree growth will have a positive effect for all. Shrinking will have a negative effect.

Effectively block movement? Everybody on the Nic list that is junior to a retiring line pilot moves up a number. No matter whether the retiring line pilot was originally East or West. But I guess not getting all the East and West attrition is considered blocking movement by some.

You're not getting it Jim. Or maybe you're unable to understand given your bias. Yes, this is true. Everybody, East and West, gets all the attrition (East attrition and West attrition) created by the pilots retiring senior to them. The point I am making is that the NIC puts many more 'younger and senior' (and with much less LOS to boot) in front of East pilots effectively blocking their movement to the left seat. Yes, a pilot will move if a retirement occurs senior to them but many East pilots will not cross the threshold of seniority to hold Captain due to the large block of younger pilots placed senior to them by the NIC. Just how many would not upgrade due to NIC that would have otherwise? I don't know the exact number. The only way to really know that number would be to conduct a pilot by pilot analysis. A task I am not willing to take on. But it is safe to say MANY are in this predicament. And this is the problem. No East pilot should lose their upgrade due to this merger, as well as no West pilot should lose their seat due to this merger.

Let's see...East has about 450 pilots on medical, out of about 3300. Deducting those retirements since they don't leave a vacancy behind, your 80% of retirements that come from the East turns into ~69% of potential movement inducing retirements. 69% vs 67% = it's about a wash - actual movement will be more or less what it would have been without a merger. Granted, some of the older more junior East pilots will see less movement while the younger more senior East pilots will see more movement, but overall not much difference.

Fuzzy math Jim. Irregardless of your math, you know as well as I do that the majority of movement comming in the near future and for the next ten years for that matter will be provided by East attrition. I disagree with your movement projections. Actually, the older yet junior East pilots will see more movement in terms of raw numbers in the remaining years they have because they will also see the movement created by the retiring West pilots that were placed senior to them (few as they may be). Problem is, it won't be enough for them to see the left seat because of the road block created by NIC (younger placed senior). This is the net effect. Similarly, the younger yet senior East pilots will also see more movement in terms of raw numbers for the same reason. But still they will not realize the seniority (percentage wise) they would have acheived sans merge. Right or wrong, this is what the NIC has created for the East. For the majority of East pilots this is a hard pill to swallow after putting in many many years and making the sacrifices to keep this place going. If you can't understand this Jim, there is no point discussing this any further with you. Your mind is closed.

 

[CallawayGolf]

It's easy to not do the right thing when you have a villain like USAPA to say "they are worse!", isn't it? At least get it right-Nicolau started this. The east did just what the west did in the beginning, it presented a proposal that put their pilots in the best light. Nothing more and nothing less and certainly nothing sinister. For all the proclamations of integrity, it is forgotten that the west never offered any great deal that the east couldn't refuse before arbitration. Put it out there, I can't find it, what was the west's last offer going into arbitration?

Nicolau didn't start anything. He was hired by both US & HP pilots to settle the seniority integration issue that remained unresolved and thus contractually required an arbitrator’s assistance. He was granted full legal and contractual authority to rule anyway he saw fit to meet the needs of both groups within the constraints of the merger policy. He could have ruled in a way that heavily favored one group over the other. He could have ruled for DOH or he could have placed all US pilots below HP pilots because he was given the power and authority to do so. All pilots ought to be thankful that instead of favoring one group over another, he ruled in a very objective and unbiased manner and gave full credit to each person’s seniority position held at the time of the merger.

Failure to accept the final and binding arbitration is entirely the fault of the east pilots who threw a childish temper tantrum for not getting what they wanted and have held the company and all pilots, not to mention the flight attendants, hostage ever since. It doesn’t matter how many words you use or how many people you convince that the NIC isn’t fair (not that any exist outside the east pilot group anyway), it won’t change the fact that the East, now under the control of USAPA, has failed to accept final and binding arbitration. Blaming Nicolau is unwarranted, unjustified, and a futile attempt to divert attention away from the East pilots’ moral and contractual breaches of conduct.

 

[Pi brat]

Nicolau didn't start anything. He was hired by both US & HP pilots to settle the seniority integration issue that remained unresolved and thus contractually required an arbitrator’s assistance. He was granted full legal and contractual authority to rule anyway he saw fit to meet the needs of both groups within the constraints of the merger policy. He could have ruled in a way that heavily favored one group over the other. He could have ruled for DOH or he could have placed all US pilots below HP pilots because he was given the power and authority to do so. All pilots ought to be thankful that instead of favoring one group over another, he ruled in a very objective and unbiased manner and gave full credit to each person’s seniority position held at the time of the merger.

Failure to accept the final and binding arbitration is entirely the fault of the east pilots who threw a childish temper tantrum for not getting what they wanted and have held the company and all pilots, not to mention the flight attendants, hostage ever since. It doesn’t matter how many words you use or how many people you convince that the NIC isn’t fair (not that any exist outside the east pilot group anyway), it won’t change the fact that the East, now under the control of USAPA, has failed to accept final and binding arbitration. Blaming Nicolau is unwarranted, unjustified, and a futile attempt to divert attention away from the East pilots’ moral and contractual breaches of conduct.

Blah, Blah, Blah.........your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I disagree. If Nic had come up with something that gave the east credit for their coming attrition, we wouldn't be here. For most east pilots it wasn't DOH or bust. You are correct that Nic had wide latitude, but I believe had he used that power to give the east LOS, we would to day be arguing on the stalling tactics of the west MEC, using their veto to avoid a joint contract and a LOS Nic award. Turning his back to the attrition and the furloughees was his fault.

 

[cleardirect]

Blah, Blah, Blah.........your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I disagree. If Nic had come up with something that gave the east credit for their coming attrition, we wouldn't be here. For most east pilots it wasn't DOH or bust. You are correct that Nic had wide latitude, but I believe had he used that power to give the east LOS, we would to day be arguing on the stalling tactics of the west MEC, using their veto to avoid a joint contract and a LOS Nic award. Turning his back to the attrition and the furloughees was his fault.

IF attrition was so important than the east should have come off of DOH/LOS and asked for it. But was it the the east told Nicolau after he told you that you were not getting DOH/LOS? Oh that's right. "we are comfortable in our position"

So it seems that it was DOH or bust during arbitration. It is still DOH or bust now. Attempting to rewrite history will not change the facts.

You guys should have concentrated on attrition and/ or furloughs instead of trying to take it all.

 

[Pi brat]

IF attrition was so important than the east should have come off of DOH/LOS and asked for it. But was it the the east told Nicolau after he told you that you were not getting DOH/LOS? Oh that's right. "we are comfortable in our position"

So it seems that it was DOH or bust during arbitration. It is still DOH or bust now. Attempting to rewrite history will not change the facts.

You guys should have concentrated on attrition and/ or furloughs instead of trying to take it all.

Los took care of the attriton, or was that lost on you? What big change did the west make to their proposal after Nic came back and said neither side would win? Tell me, what was your best offer to the east? No one seems to want to touch that.

 

[nic4us]

Yeah right. That's what the judge said...before the case ever WENT to the jury.

New judge, OUTSIDE of your neighborhood. That is the only way it could be fair this time around. You afraid of that? The facts won't stand on their own merit?

If you are so supremely confidant, then support it being tried somewhere else. But you won't do that, will you? Last time that happened, YOU LOST!

If USAPA goes down in flames, I won't lose any sleep over it, but it infuriates me to no end when I perceive this kind of partiality. No difference here than with any other politician.

Driver B)

So I take it you agree with usapa, that unless a judge finds in their favor, the process was unfair.

I mean, Nicolau did not give the east what they demanded, therefore the result is unfair.

A jury found usapa guilty of failing its DFR, therefore the judge is biased and the process unfair.

The district court in North Carolina dismisses with predjudice, oh that judge does not understand the law, is unfair, we must appeal.

The apellate court then upholds the district courts finding, so BPR tables the motion brought that would stop any further action in the RICO suit,,,, why?

I am not afraid of a change of venue, the appointment of judge Silver, Wake declining transfer of the company's suit, or any usapa concieved course of action. The fact of the matter is that the merits of the case do stand on their own. It has been proven in front of a jury. The company fears the same result with their pockets tied to the damages. It is the company's suit, they chose the venue. (Let me guess, by choosing the district in which the corporate HQ is located, they are being unfair).

AOL will defend the West position and prevail no matter who the judge or where the courthouse.

 

[traderjake]

I have never wanted ANY of their jobs.

Not true, if we furlough a thousand pilots how many are going to be East pilots under USAPA's scheme?

 

[Pi brat]

Not true, if we furlough a thousand pilots how many are going to be East pilots under USAPA's scheme?

Here we go again. I say I never wanted a west job and you say that USAPA's scheme would furlough west pilots. Do you see the disconnect there? You keep putting words in my mouth and I don't appreciate it. Why do you have such a problem following along?

 

[BoeingBoy]

If you can't understand this Jim, there is no point discussing this any further with you. Your mind is closed.

Oh, I understand what you're saying. I just disagree that your broad generalizations prove the point you're convinced is fact. First is the basic assumption of a static fleet - was that assumption valid at the time of the merger? Then the use of "many" and "most" - is that a 49.98% and 99% respectively, or a half dozen and a few dozen? You don't want to look at actual data, preferring to keep your preconceived perspective intact while glossing over factual discrepancies with subjective terms.

No East pilot should lose their upgrade due to this merger, as well as no West pilot should lose their seat due to this merger.

How generous - merely saying that no West pilot should lose their seat because of the merger but every East pilot should keep "their" upgrade. Maybe that's why your bias keeps your blinders in place - the idea that upgrades are somehow East property while the West is entitled to nothing but the seat they occupied at some point in time of USAPA's choosing, preferably after losing most of their lost planes. So much for a "static fleet". What you mean is really a static East fleet while the West fleet shrinks.

Like others, you set up a scenario that favors the East then proclaim that it can't come true so the arbitrated results are "unfair". Could it be that the arbitrated result is fair, but your contrived scenario is biased?

Jim