US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Pi brat]

And we'll being making LOA 93 wages for a very long time.

That's fine with me. People like Nic4us and Freebird have convinced me I want no part of the west. I will set here in my little 737 and beat the east coast to death before I freely give them anything.

 

[RSVP767]

It is extremely over generous. Considering that under the Nic, less than one in five Pilots in the top 1000 are West pilots.

What is pathetic is that after five years the east is still acting like the West was added to their list.

Nicolau messed up alright. He should have stapled the east to the bottom of the West list, and I am sure he would have if he thought the likes of usapa would come along to steal from the West anyway.

This award was more than fair to the ungrateful disgruntled malcontents that have proven they did not even deserve the luxury of arbitration.

St. NIC, Lottery ticket?

Guess what? The five year windfall the east has enjoyed at the direct expense of the West is coming to an end.

Wake probably will not take this case from Silver, but guess what he told the company today?

usapa is done. So is your DOH seniority theft scandal.

Woah, easy there.....did I hit a nerve? I know, the truth hurts but put your head back on for a minute.

More than likely, Separate Ops will continue and you will get to observe (from afar) the value of the East attrition.

Wake will not take this case because he can't. The Addington case has been dismissed. There is no action pending before Judge Wake. The powers conferred by Rule 42 are available only when actions involving a common question of law or fact are pending before the court.

Now, please do tell.......just what did Wake tell the company today?

 

[nic4us]

Was that in ALPA merger policy? Was that the task he was given, to bow down to him? How about Judge Wake? Is that what he is looking for?

For all the east posters that have had heartburn about USAPA, as I have, look to this jeep model to see how they really feel and what they are entitled to.

No it was not ALPA merger policy. Nicoalu completed the task at hand, in a fair unbiased manner. All this talk of a West windfall is pure BS. This award is fair. This award complies with ALPA merger policy. This award has been accepted by the company as meeting their criteria and that of the TA.

I do not understand your comment about the jeep model.

 

[nic4us]

So, before the case even starts, he has already given the verdict??? Isn't that the same Mickey Mouse nonsense he did during Addington when he starts talking about the damages trial before it even went to the jury???

Who is this guy and how did he get to be a judge? I've heard of arrogance from the bench, but this guy takes it to a whole new level. He decides the cases before all the evidence is presented.

Drive <_<

He got to be a judge the same way Graber and Tashima did at the 9th.

I see no difference between Wake saying the West will have a claim, and Graber and Tashima warning of an "unquestionably ripe DFR".

Speaking of arrogance, how dare usapa accuse a federal judge of bias, for nothing more than the fact that a jury in his courtroom ruled against them. That is what judges do. usapa is guilty, that does not make the judge biased.

 

[Freebird]

That's fine with me. People like Nic4us and Freebird have convinced me I want no part of the west. I will set here in my little 737 and beat the east coast to death before I freely give them anything.

You get what you negotiate, right? The East negotiated (demanded) DOH against better judgement. And they didnt get it.

If nic4us and myself have spoiled your party, then I'd say its high time you pick up your broken toys and go to the corner Usapa painted you into. Or, you could honor your agreements and get a raise, a new contract, a future and maybe some new West friends. I didnt say Best Friends, I said West friends. Wouldnt want to get between you and your attorney's.

I look forward to flying with Hate, Black Swan, Muty/John John, -9, 1984, PHX, etc., (even if you're all the same person). Too bad Sully isnt around anymore. I'd like to as him a few questions about integrity.

Until then, enjoy your -190/737 or whatever up and down the coast at Mesa rates. Your choice.

Usapa = We dont care about the truth, we just want DOH. No RAISE FOR YOU. :unsure:

 

[Freebird]

Why do you guys ignore the fact that many of your retiring pilots do not provide ANY forward movement? What about the pilots who retire while on furlough? What about those who retire from the right seat, or from medical? They provide no movement at all. So after taking those out of the picture, 2 out of 3 (4 out of 6, for the mathematically challenged) is about right if 4 of 5 accounts for total attrition.

Now why do you have to bring common sense into this cesspool?


USAPA = Like ALPA, but worse...

 

[Pi brat]

No it was not ALPA merger policy. Nicoalu completed the task at hand, in a fair unbiased manner. All this talk of a West windfall is pure BS. This award is fair. This award complies with ALPA merger policy. This award has been accepted by the company as meeting their criteria and that of the TA.

I do not understand your comment about the jeep model.

Then why did you say he would have/should have stapled us if he knew? He did staple some of my good friends, BTW.

It's a double secret USAPA code word. Sorry, can't tell you what it means.

 

[Pi brat]

You get what you negotiate, right? The East negotiated (demanded) DOH against better judgement. And they didnt get it.

If nic4us and myself have spoiled your party, then I'd say its high time you pick up your broken toys and go to the corner Usapa painted you into. Or, you could honor your agreements and get a raise, a new contract, a future and maybe some new West friends. I didnt say Best Friends, I said West friends. Wouldnt want to get between you and your attorney's.

I look forward to flying with Hate, Black Swan, Muty/John John, -9, 1984, PHX, etc., (even if you're all the same person). Too bad Sully isnt around anymore. I'd like to as him a few questions about integrity.

Until then, enjoy your -190/737 or whatever up and down the coast at Mesa rates. Your choice.

Usapa = We dont care about the truth, we just want DOH. No RAISE FOR YOU. :unsure:

Most of my F/Os enjoy flying with me, so I'm sure you will too.

It is too bad Sully is gone, he's a good guy, but some people, you just can't train them. You have no clue the damage you are doing.

Attorney's what?

 

[nic4us]

Woah, easy there.....did I hit a nerve? I know, the truth hurts but put your head back on for a minute.

More than likely, Separate Ops will continue and you will get to observe (from afar) the value of the East attrition.

Wake will not take this case because he can't. The Addington case has been dismissed. There is no action pending before Judge Wake. The powers conferred by Rule 42 are available only when actions involving a common question of law or fact are pending before the court.

Now, please do tell.......just what did Wake tell the company today?

Actually, I am more upset over the ad hoc committe on profit sharing.

I think you are right, and Wake will not take the case. Could be wrong though, I would say 75/25 he does not.

Further, I think todays oral arguements were just for Wake to get on record scolding usapa legal. Good luck with any judge now.

As far as what Wake told the company, I mispoke, he did not tell the company, he told Granath, but the company was most certainly present to hear it. You will have to wait for another poster to spill the beans, or might I suggest you get it from usapa's communication committee, I am sure they will offer an unbiased account of today's court proceedings.

 

[cleardirect]

If you are "not sure how a pilot brings someone else's attrition to a merger" just agree to a 10 year fence with the East and you will figure it out.

Don't for get the West went "all in on stapling" nearly 2500 East Pilots. Nic is fair is comparing apples to apples, again not the case here.

Flat out lie.

 

[Freebird]

Most of my F/Os enjoy flying with me, so I'm sure you will too.

It is too bad Sully is gone, he's a good guy, but some people, you just can't train them. You have no clue the damage you are doing.

Attorney's what?

USAPA started this fire by attempting to steal from the West and it was fueled by Integrity lacking pilots on the East who bought into the scheme. Enjoy the mess you've created for yourselves.

USAPA = Stepping over dollars for dimes. .10, .20, .30 ...

 

[traderjake]

That's fine with me. That's fine with me. People like Nic4us and Freebird have convinced me I want no part of the west. I will set here in my little 737 and beat the east coast to death before I freely give them anything.

What is their crime?

Not letting you steal their job.

I believe the majority go to work to make money, not entertain your fantasy of rewriting the seniority list, and will soon say enough is enough.

 

[RSVP767]

Why do you guys ignore the fact that many of your retiring pilots do not provide ANY forward movement? What about the pilots who retire while on furlough? What about those who retire from the right seat, or from medical? They provide no movement at all. So after taking those out of the picture, 2 out of 3 (4 out of 6, for the mathematically challenged) is about right if 4 of 5 accounts for total attrition.

We do not ignore that fact. Each retirement does not necessarily provide movement for everyone, but every retirement provides movement for someone. It's a matter of where you reside on the list relative to the guy retiring. We get it. After all, we weren't hired yesterday!

Heck, You could argue that the East does not lose any of their attrition (as many on the West have nievely proclaimed). I suppose literally this is true. However, given the demographics and the results under NIC, a closer examination shows that practically speaking, the East is negatively impacted in regards to retaining the effective results of their attrition. Since the original order of each respective list does not change, the retirement sequence and the gross effect is the same. For example, If 1200 East pilots senior to me on the East stand alone list retire, those same 1200 East pilots senior to me will retire from the combined list. Now for a combined list, for each pilot, a unique number of pilots 'x' from the merging partners list will end up senior to them. Some may be older and will retire before them, providing movement (let's call these pilots 'y'). Others will be younger and effectively block movement (let's call these pilots 'z'). In the case of US/AWA, given the demographics of our two airlines, with the East predominantly having the older pilots throughout our list, the latter case is the more dominant senario. The result is that more 'z' pilots end up senior to you than 'y' pilots. Thus, the net effect for the majority of East pilots is negative relative to pre merge expectactions. For those on the top of the list 'x' is a relatively small number and among those 'x' pilots (where x=y+z) the percentage of 'z' pilots is even smaller and generally insignificant and acceptable. But as you go down the list the negative consequenses are compounded as the number of 'z' pilots increases to a point that is intolerable to the East under the NIC. So, for those that find themselves on the bottom portion of the East list through no fault of their own, end up with an amount of pilots 'z', that is so large, it prevents them from ever breaking that threshold of seniority to hold Captain when they otherwise would have. Conversely, the opposite is true for the West. For them, under NIC, a majority of their pilots see an amount of pilots 'x' coming in on top of them is more heavily weighted with 'y' (retiring) pilots. Thus, the net effect for the West is positive relative to their stand alone list. I'm willing to bet that the reason the 'relative' method worked so well for the DL/NW merge was because the components of 'y' and 'z' pilots was fairly consistent throughout their combined list.

Having said all of that, the fact remains......in simple terms......the East provides approx. 80% of the total attrition while only realizing 67% in return as a whole. The movement is shifted West.

 

[Run Like Hell]

The handwriting on the wall is clear, the west pilots would have a claim against the company if they conspire with USAPA to change the NIC.

I suspect the company knew that when they filed for the D/J

I doubt the company would take that path now.

Considering the "Brain Trust" in CLT has not posted a Legal Update yet, I suspect they probably know that too and are busy working on a "happy spin" to the events.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Each retirement does not necessarily provide movement for everyone, but every retirement provides movement for someone. It's a matter of where you reside on the list relative to the guy retiring. We get it. After all, we weren't hired yesterday!

Are you sure you weren't hired yesterday? You'll have to explain how someone - let's just say #5 on the East seniority list - retiring while out on long term medical provides movement for anyone since he doesn't leave a vacancy behind when he retires. Note: this ignores the two rather long periods when even active line pilot attrition didn't create movement for those junior - US just shrank.

Now for a combined list, for each pilot, a unique number of pilots 'x' from the merging partners list will end up senior to them. Some may be older and will retire before them, providing movement (let's call these pilots 'y'). Others will be younger and effectively block movement (let's call these pilots 'z').

Effectively block movement? Everybody on the Nic list that is junior to a retiring line pilot moves up a number. No matter whether the retiring line pilot was originally East or West. But I guess not getting all the East and West attrition is considered blocking movement by some.

Let's see...East has about 450 pilots on medical, out of about 3300. Deducting those retirements since they don't leave a vacancy behind, your 80% of retirements that come from the East turns into ~69% of potential movement inducing retirements. 69% vs 67% = it's about a wash - actual movement will be more or less what it would have been without a merger. Granted, some of the older more junior East pilots will see less movement while the younger more senior East pilots will see more movement, but overall not much difference.

Jim