US Pilots Labor Thread 8/20-8/27- NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Barrister]

Not that it matters because the arbitrator and jury have ruled. But this excuse keeps coming up.

Since you made the point, how about giving us the facts. Exactly how many in each category?



How many east pilots fall into this category?



How many east pilots fall into this category?

Please use facts and data, no guesses.

Now please tell us how many west F/O’s would never upgrade under DOH? How many east pilots would not have upgraded even without the merger or under DOH? How many west pilots would never hold a line under DOH?

If a statement is made please back it up with facts, not rumor.

My point exactly, we know what the numbers are and so do you....you just want to ignore it. And your answer is very few West F/O's will upgrade SHORT TERM....long term they make out like bandits. 2000+retirements in the East in 10 years once age 65 guys start leaving. I am soooostating the obvious here....that is why

VNIIMN

 

[luvn737s]

My point exactly, we know what the numbers are and so do you....you just want to ignore it. And your answer is very few West F/O's will upgrade SHORT TERM....long term they make out like bandits. 2000+retirements in the East in 10 years once age 65 guys start leaving. I am soooostating the obvious here....that is why

VNIIMN

So what entitles the east to exclusive possession of the "bird-in-the-hand"? (Not the gesture)

 

[ROACLT]

So what entitles the east to exclusive possession of the "bird-in-the-hand"? (Not the gesture)

Nothing exclusive about waiting in line.

The bottom line is both local ALPA and national leadership through the so called "expert" "E & FA" department and investment bankers counselled and advocated making huge sacrifices in pension, pay, scope, and work rules to preserve the investment(longevity) the East pilots had. For the current captains it was to maintain the position and pay although reduced that the longevity had brought them and for first officers or those being furloughed it was the right to move into those positions when the more senior pilots, and numbering more than 2000 in less than 10 years vacated for retirement. Nobody, certainly not the most junior wanted scope relaxed from 56 50 seat RJ's to what it is today but the argument being sold was that whether you were downgraded, moved to reserve or furloughed, that through retirement, and recall with unlimited duration, longevity would ensure advancement to which all considered and what the deal was being sold on was the single greatest asset and worth sacrificing all else to preserve.

So anything else other than preservation of that would be transferring the fruits of those sacrifices to those who didn't make them. Longevity and protections prevents disruption but allows all to share based on how long they have stood in line. Fair is subjective and seniority isn't. That is why pilots and most other skilled crafts use it because in fairness, the employees with the best attitudes, best sick leave record, best reviews under some review process, and those who interview best would receive advancement and promotion under some form of meritocracy. Labor unions have traditionally not trusted the implementation of meritocracy and went to longevity based systems because the thought process is if you are going to deny someone the right to advance based on capability and performance, the only other fair way is by how long they have waited, regardless of whether they are a good employee or not.

 

[cleardirect]

My point exactly, we know what the numbers are and so do you....you just want to ignore it. And your answer is very few West F/O's will upgrade SHORT TERM....long term they make out like bandits. 2000+retirements in the East in 10 years once age 65 guys start leaving. I am soooostating the obvious here....that is why

VNIIMN

If it is so obvious then please state the numbers. I am not ignoring it. I am asking to see the numbers. Perhaps it is an urban legend. I don't know the numbers and I think think that you do either.

Answer my questions.

Exactly how many east F/O's will not upgrade under Nicolau?

How many west F/O's would not upgrade under DOH?

How many east F/O's would not upgrade under DOH or no merger at all.

Simple questions Just like in school, please show your work.

 

[luvn737s]

Nothing exclusive about waiting in line.

The claim on reparations for past sacrifices died with the old USAirways. This is a new airline and the integration is not tied to nostalgia. I know that sounds harsh, but the future cannot be built if mired in the past.

 

[ROACLT]

The claim on reparations for past sacrifices died with the old USAirways. This is a new airline and the integration is not tied to nostalgia. I know that sounds harsh, but the future cannot be built if mired in the past.

I guessed those vets who come home from wars, wouldn't mind their benefits cut because there is no entitlement based off the past. That is just nostalgic, today's issues can't be tied to past deeds and such.

Using a term "Old US Airways" is a cheap attempt to devalue someone elses contribution so you can advance your own agenda without the same sacrifice. It's laughable and its greedy.

Past sacrifice and nostalgia used in the same sentence. Absurdity. :blink:

 

[luvn737s]

I guessed those vets who come home from wars, wouldn't mind their benefits cut because there is no entitlement based off the past. That is just nostalgic, today's issues can't be tied to past deeds and such.

Using a term "Old US Airways" is a cheap attempt to devalue someone elses contribution so you can advance your own agenda without the same sacrifice. It's laughable and its greedy.

Past sacrifice and nostalgia used in the same sentence. Absurdity. :blink:

You aren't really making a moral equivalence between a war veteran and an Old USAirways pilot, are you? And there have been substantial sacrifices made on both sides, but they shouldn't impede the progress of integration waiting on every wrong to be made right.

The term Old USAirways is the only way to make the important distinction between what was then and what is now. Had the name been changed, this wouldn't be necessary.

And unless I'm missing something, I don't think those terms were in the same sentence. Same paragraph, yes.

 

[flypg]

I guessed those vets who come home from wars, wouldn't mind their benefits cut because there is no entitlement based off the past. That is just nostalgic, today's issues can't be tied to past deeds and such.

Using a term "Old US Airways" is a cheap attempt to devalue someone elses contribution so you can advance your own agenda without the same sacrifice. It's laughable and its greedy.

Past sacrifice and nostalgia used in the same sentence. Absurdity. :blink:

What you wrote on your previous post is so right, correct and to the point. It cannot be argued unless you have a lottery ticket that says otherwise. It reminds me of who paid for the E-190 and with what.

flypg

 

[flypg]

You aren't really making a moral equivalence between a war veteran and an Old USAirways pilot, are you? And there have been substantial sacrifices made on both sides, but they shouldn't impede the progress of integration waiting on every wrong to be made right.

The term Old USAirways is the only way to make the important distinction between what was then and what is now. Had the name been changed, this wouldn't be necessary.

And unless I'm missing something, I don't think those terms were in the same sentence. Same paragraph, yes.

Ok, got you. The old Usairways is gone and everything ROACLT said does not exist.....Yes, you are missing something profound.

flypg

 

[flypg]

My point exactly, we know what the numbers are and so do you....you just want to ignore it. And your answer is very few West F/O's will upgrade SHORT TERM....long term they make out like bandits. 2000+retirements in the East in 10 years once age 65 guys start leaving. I am soooostating the obvious here....that is why

VNIIMN

Barrister,

Do you think that maybe they don't really know the numbers ? or maybe never even bother to look ? or they do know and just ignore them ? the devastation in the years you mention is so severe, it will make you sick. Read ROACLT's post as to why the quote is so true,

VNIIMN, VNIIMN, VNIIMN.

Thanks Barrister for your great posts.

flypg

 

[cleardirect]

Barrister,

Do you think that maybe they don't really know the numbers ? or maybe never even bother to look ? or they do know and just ignore them ? the devastation in the years you mention is so severe, it will make you sick. Read ROACLT's post as to why the quote is so true,

VNIIMN, VNIIMN, VNIIMN.

Thanks Barrister for your great posts.

flypg

No numbers yet! Do you guys know or is this just crew room bluster and urban myth?

How many east F/O's will not upgrade under Nicolau?

How many east F/O's would not have upgraded under DOH or no merger?

How many west F/O's would not upgrade under DOH?

Someone has to know and will post the real facts.

 

[cleardirect]

Hearing for motion to stay the injunction.


Judge Wake says DENIED!


But I am sure that usapa planned it that way, and have the west right where they want us.

My guess Seham collects another $10,000 and files the same motion with the ninth circuit.
Another guess. DENIED

 

[HPDriver]

Doug Parker and Scott Kirby have never met an employee or customer they could care one wit about.

Get over it! I know I have! They are part of a new breed of CEO. The only concern is what can be quantified on a spreadsheet.

As for Leadership I don't see any. Anybody can look at a spreadsheet and figure out how to be cheap. It took Herb Kelleher to turn cheap into a brand and if he live to be 1000 years old, Doug Parker is no Herb Kelleher.

My post had nothing to do with employee or customer love at all.

And, as UAL has shown, you need to be able to do more than look at a spreadsheet to run an airline. Parker, obviously, can do that. And he doesn't have to love his employees to do so.

As I stated before, if the east keeps underestimating him, they continue to spin their wheels.

 

[luvn737s]

Arrogance and hubris haven't gotten USAPA anywhere so far, but I doubt you'll convince them to change their strategy. They promoted themselves as bullies who would take what they couldn't negotiate.

How's that workin' out for 'em?

 

[flypg]

Arrogance and hubris haven't gotten USAPA anywhere so far, but I doubt you'll convince them to change their strategy. They promoted themselves as bullies who would take what they couldn't negotiate.

How's that workin' out for 'em?

About the same Nick is working for you. Now pay up, Usapa needs your money.

flypg