US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[hp_fa]

If you were smart, you'd change your tone.

It is in your best interests to try to repair the damage and ill-will that you are complicit in generating with the east...if you EVER want any hope of a contract that gives you your Nic.


If you were smart.

We'll see.

Isn't that the advice that should have been given to the AAA MEC at the time of:

1. The seniority negotiations;
2. The mediation;
3. The arbitration; and,
4. Wye River.

Then USAPA prior to trial and after trial?

I must be mixed up here on who should be changing their tone, but then that isn't likely to occur in CLT or HPN, is it?

 

[cleardirect]

Metro,

It is my understanding that there are former east pilots who had accepted recall to group II A/C, after bypassing the E190, which was within their recall rights, to only later be displaced to the 190. Do not know for sure if that is the case, but that is the claim by some posters on this thread.

Here is the hypothetical scenario. There is some furloughed east pilot making 47k with a matching 401k working as a Burger King manager. Merger happens, company calls and says "would you like to return and fly the E190". This individual says "no I will stick with the smell of fry grease over jet fuel". A short time later the company calls and says, "we have your A320 seat, and if you do not want to return we are going to strike your name from the seniority list." The pilot then decides to ditch the hairnet and paper hat and return for the better income. The Nic comes out, the east implodes, the economy tanks and this pilot is now in an E190 F/O seat, the very place they bypassed in the first round.

One small correction. Most of those that accepted recall knew where the Nicolau placed them.

Before anyone comes unglued. The neutral wanted those recalled prior to the award credited as not furloughed. It was only 300. So the majority came after the award was announced.

One other small detail. When I talk to an east pilot about this they all left >$100,000 a year jobs to return. With all of their experience in the airline business they should have known this was possible.

 

[cleardirect]

If you were smart, you'd change your tone.

It is in your best interests to try to repair the damage and ill-will that you are complicit in generating with the east...if you EVER want any hope of a contract that gives you your Nic.


If you were smart.

We'll see.

It seems to me that once again you have it 180 degree wrong.

It is the east that has been found to be liable for DFR. It is the east that has lost all of the court cases so far. It is the east that holds the majority. It is the east that is charge of negotiating a contract. It is the east that we continually hear hold the votes to pass or fail a contract. It is usapa that is suppose to be the leaders of the group. Therefore it is usapa and the east that has to change their attitude and TRY to repair the damage.

If you were smart you would call your favorite BPR member and tell them to change their ways.

Otherwise it is going to get real expensive. If you were smart.

 

[EastUS]

1. Yes it is the current situation. Does anyone really believe that separate ops is sustainable indefinitely?

Clear enough or do I need to repeat it again?

3. Chugga, chugga!!! Train keeps rolling down the tracks. Destination, inevitability.

ps. You can think of it as a toy. But the "toy" has serious ramifications.

1) Define your personal notion of "indefinitely". Anything indefinite to me, means unknown, and thusly, subject to the whims of future fortune and events unknown....like say; an appeal, potential dissection/aquisition of the company or an LOA contest, just for starters.

2) Repeat, wash, rinse and endlessly spew forth at your pleasure...it changes nothing whatsoever...except, perhaps, to raise your own blood pressure a bit.

3) Sigh...again with the toy trains. FYI: The possibility exists that more adequate metaphors are available that denote some more viable measure of actual certainty...just a thought. Ever heard of any train ever being derailed, or otherwise fail to arrive at it's intended destination?

 

[Beancounter]

1. Yes it is the current situation. Does anyone really believe that separate ops is sustainable indefinitely?
If so, did you also believe that industry plus 1% would last forever? This is a merger, by definition we will be merged at some point.

2. No ranting. REPETITION!!! That is sometimes the only way slow learners can figure it out. Repetition. It seems that east pilots are having trouble understanding that there is no compromise no ability to comprimise. It is the east pilots that keep bringing it up. Compromise is over. Compromise was over when Nicoalu ruled, compromise was over when usapa forced single carrier, compromise is over when Judge Wake issues his final injunction.

Clear enough or do I need to repeat it again?

3. Chugga, chugga!!! Train keeps rolling down the tracks. Destination, inevitability.

ps. You can think of it as a toy. But the "toy" has serious ramifications.

I'm hesitant to say anything since you may be a senior captain and I'm just a lowly fo, but........... I don't think the way you're posting your thoughts is helping communication here. Just a suggestion because it works for me, take a couple shots of Crown and relax.

 

[EastUS]

Maybe there is hope for us all

Ya' never know Where there's life..there's hope. I've always believed that much

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

It seems to me that once again you have it 180 degree wrong.

It is the east that has been found to be liable for DFR. It is the east that has lost all of the court cases so far. It is the east that holds the majority. It is the east that is charge of negotiating a contract. It is the east that we continually hear hold the votes to pass or fail a contract. It is usapa that is suppose to be the leaders of the group. Therefore it is usapa and the east that has to change their attitude and TRY to repair the damage.

If you were smart you would call your favorite BPR member and tell them to change their ways.

Otherwise it is going to get real expensive. If you were smart.

Well, now you can't say you weren't told.

Go ahead and run with it as you are....I think you've seen that intimidation and chest pounding will get you nowhere and nothing except fewer friends east of the Mississippi.

As for expenses...thats a joke...your highest and best claims for damages are gone already.

Oh well, I'm over caring about it at all.
Good luck.

 

[EastUS]

One other small detail. When I talk to an east pilot about this they all left >$100,000 a year jobs to return. With all of their experience in the airline business they should have known this was possible.

Well..that certainly makes their present circumstances entirely their "fault" then..I see, so..there's no reason for you not to take full advantage of them. I love westie "logic"...It's so utterly predictable. All one needs do is try to obtain a personal moment, wherein one can try to imagine that the world, nay the universe, was created entirely for one's self..then proceed to view all things from that perspective

 

[Beancounter]

I'm hesitant to say anything since you may be a senior captain and I'm just a lowly fo, but........... I don't think the way you're posting your thoughts is helping communication here. Just a suggestion because it works for me, take a couple shots of Crown and relax.

I guess I should have thought about the possibilty that you don't drink. I find a sparse road and an italian 12 cylinder engine(flat or V) to be very relaxing.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

One small correction. Most of those that accepted recall knew where the Nicolau placed them.

Before anyone comes unglued. The neutral wanted those recalled prior to the award credited as not furloughed. It was only 300. So the majority came after the award was announced.

One other small detail. When I talk to an east pilot about this they all left >$100,000 a year jobs to return. With all of their experience in the airline business they should have known this was possible.

Yeah...all those who were flying all over the country or out of country monitored every daily peep about the Nic....and you can prove this..right?

And under the TA and seperate ops...all the west knew that they could be furloughed out of their own system regardless of the Nic..

And the west side of the house (LAS) is shrinking...and this is what you brought to the merger...so there's no surprise there either..
(or shouldn't be)

It's all possible...any and all of it.

So we will heretofore ignore all your west concerns, and you ignore ours...

And you will not see your contract because Parker loves it.....and can't "afford to buy you the Nic" insofar as a contract goes....and USAPA will show up to both meetings with the company each month with the highest hopes... <_<

Who cares.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I don't think the way you're posting your thoughts is helping communication here. Just a suggestion because it works for me, take a couple shots of Crown and relax.

There's no need to communicate anything as the facts are already known. How this pilot group proceeds is up to each pilot, which is driven by what is best for their family. Sum those decisions up and we'll have direction. FACT: Nicolau is OVER and the only way to improvement is through a joint contract. FACT: ALK and JBLU pilots are making 40% more than East pilots, not to mention superior work rules and better defined contributions. FACT: USAPA exists because they sold a lie to a pilot group that promised two things: (i) obliteration of Nicolau and (ii) quick contract. Obviously, (i) will never happen and (ii) will only arrive as soon as the realization sets in that the angry f/o club is responisble for all of this. Too many pilots have an interest in earning as much income as possible to let a rouge and angry group continue this charade much longer. That's why common sense supports Traderjake's statement that 90% of the east captains that he flies with are ready to move on. We're all ready to move on. Hopes for a East wide allegiance to the twisted notion of fairness championed by the angry f/o club is pure fantasy.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

There's no need to communicate anything as the facts are already known. How this pilot group proceeds is up to each pilot, and what is best for their families. Sum those decisions up and we'll have direction. FACT: Nicolau is OVER and the only way to improvement is through a joint contract. FACT: ALK and JBLU pilots are making 40% more than East pilots, not to mention superior work rules and better defined contributions. FACT: USAPA exists because they sold a lie to a pilot group that promised two things: (i) obliteration of Nicolau and (ii) quick contract. Obviously, (i) will never happen and (ii) will only arrive as soon as the realization sets in that the angry f/o club is responisble for all of this. Too many pilots have an interest in earning as much income as possible to let a rouge and angry group continue this charade much longer. That's why common sense supports Traderjake's statement that 90% of the east captains that he flies with are ready to move on. We're all ready to move on. Hopes for a East wide allegiance to the twisted notion of fairness championed by the angry f/o club is pure fantasy.

No...only the west and a small handfull of self-absorbed east pilots are ready to move on.

As you will see.

More "lets move on" propaganda.

 

[Beancounter]

There's no need to communicate anything as the facts are already known. How this pilot group proceeds is up to each pilot, which is driven by what is best for their family. Sum those decisions up and we'll have direction. FACT: Nicolau is OVER and the only way to improvement is through a joint contract. FACT: ALK and JBLU pilots are making 40% more than East pilots, not to mention superior work rules and better defined contributions. FACT: USAPA exists because they sold a lie to a pilot group that promised two things: (i) obliteration of Nicolau and (ii) quick contract. Obviously, (i) will never happen and (ii) will only arrive as soon as the realization sets in that the angry f/o club is responisble for all of this. Too many pilots have an interest in earning as much income as possible to let a rouge and angry group continue this charade much longer. That's why common sense supports Traderjake's statement that 90% of the east captains that he flies with are ready to move on. We're all ready to move on. Hopes for a East wide allegiance to the twisted notion of fairness championed by the angry f/o club is pure fantasy.

I understand what you're saying. Remember though when pilots on the West were runing around saying ALPA would never be voted off the property because it was just a rogue pilot group trying to overturn the Nic. I have a hard time believing that such a large number of professional, intelligent pilots would have left ALPA without some serious thought and commitment.

 

[aquagreen73s]

No...only the west and a small handfull of self-absorbed east pilots are ready to move on.
As you will see. More "lets move on" propaganda.

Whether to move on is a personal decision that involves each pilot's most important considerations in their life. For just about all of us, that's family. Group II captains might be telling you what you want to hear, but at the end of the day it comes down to what is best for them. And the facts are clear that your committment to rectify your imagined hardships is now standing in the way to them having a heck of a better schedule, more money, and more time with their families. Your imagined hardships are superfluous to them, but don't expect them to say that to your face.

 

[westcoastflyer]

No...only the west and a small handfull of self-absorbed east pilots are ready to move on.

As you will see.

More "lets move on" propaganda.

Why should all of the US Airways pilots suffer any longer than necessary under the present awful contracts, especially the East? It seems quite selfish for the affected "angry f/o's" and some of the very junior captains to expect the entire group to pay the price, because they are unhappy with/ and unwilling to accept the the legally-binding seniority integration.