US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[nycbusdriver]

All of you are exactly like all of us and trust me thats a compliment. Get off your high horses, your full of it and you know it.

Bingo! There's certainly enough integrity, and lack of it, to go around on both sides. All of us need to look in a mirror before we start ranting about who's got integrity and who doesn't.

We are doing exactly what the other side would do if the shoe were on the other foot, and it's d*** well time we accepted that fact and stopped the integrity nonsense on both sides.

We've got work to do, and unfortunately is requires a fight of sorts for now. Let the process work itself out.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Show us all how principled you are...QUIT.

Show us all how princpled you are...HANG IN WITH THAT DUES OBJECTION.

(Oops...sorry.)

 

[nycbusdriver]

It's the flight attendants that scare me. I had one start verbally assaulting me while I was standing in line for a burrito in PHX. I'm almost 40, but look late 20's. Jeesh some of those gals are mean.

Just wait until the REALLY senior ones start bidding the PHX base. Get yourself a flack vest and a good helmet.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Did I miss the part where Wake says he gets to mark all the ballots, too?

He just made it a lot harder for East to mark enough ballots to reject a contract with Nic. It's entirely conceivable that it could take 80% of eligible East pilots voting against a combined contract to reject it. You'd be hard pressed to find any issue that 80% of the eligible East pilots cast votes on, much less voted the same way. If tossing ALPA or investigating the pension loss for irregularities didn't do it, what are the odd that Nic will? Especially if it comes wrapped in a nice raise?

Jim

 

[Hawkhunter]

Well, the nice thing about having age 60 change is it delayed the massive retirements coming on your side. In another year or so we should have everything worked out contract- wise, so when the attrition really kicks in out east the west pilots will have access to all of those captain slots opening up.

Now, if you really believe what you just read you need to look at life without wearing angry-eyes. Many fear-mongers out east are creating boogey-men at every turn and inventing victories for USAPa out of thin air. Suit yourself, but if you really believe you are winning by holding out on a joint contract then I will offer this to you: In the not-so-distant future, we will be merged. Nobody has retired en masse from your side yet so all of those supposed attrtion opportunities you crow about will be there for all of us out west thanks to age 65. Now, do you want to continue gloating about your deliberate stall tactics?

No angry eyes here pal. Do you ever wonder why we feel the way we do after you post crap like you just did and why we are fighting you . I thought none of you wanted those Captain slots out East? You wouldnt lie to us would you? I guess you will get those seats out East some day, better than now though. I guess that meens even you see how unfair the nic award truly is.

 

[Hawkhunter]

Hawk, I really don't think he flipped you off, he was probably saying he can't wait till were all ONE, working for ONE contract, that was the universal sign for all together.

I really need to be more open minded.

 

[Hawkhunter]

More than than anything A-west pays. Remember jet blue 190 guys make more than you there laughing at you!! I'd be worried about cut backs on the west side if I were you. We have to get rid of the dead wood!! Keep on trying though.

Traderjake is a East guy who already has his and wants to be based in PHX.

 

[hp_fa]

My understanding of the recent ruling is that the Nic award stands, but that a combined list is still required(ie majority vote). My question is, what exactly do the east pilots expect the west pilots to do. Even if we wanted to we couldn't change the seniority list. Is it fences?

Hi Bean. No one has answered you yet probably because while your question is valid, being a new guy you could also be a troll or be flamebaiting. So that is probably why no public response yet.

The judge has circulated a draft injunction. The real injunction will be issued in the next two weeks or so. That injunction is highly likely to make the Nicolau list the basis for the combined seniority list within a new CBA.

As for what the East wants I think the answer is they don't know. Many East folks seem to want to margainalize West folks as much as they can, others are looking for West to become a meaningful part of the union. The problem at this point is who (or what) would represent the interests of the West pilots if any meetings or discussions to find out what exactly would work going forward.

There are now only two West folks on the BPR and it is laughable to expect them to represent West interests to the BPR because of membership issues in the West. Last I saw anything I guess there are 90-99 USAPA members in good standing in PHX. The union issues are a shame because it seemed to me that the AWA were good union folks pre-merger.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Did I miss the part where Wake says he gets to mark all the ballots, too?

Absent that, don't expect a quick outcome on the cashing of your lottery ticket.

NYC,
The only unilateral seniority rights inherent in th Nic award are a few E190 positions and some allocated new aircraft positions which expire after 4 years plus "a list". The contract has 30 required negotiating sections and is subject to ratification of the union members eligible to vote.

If changing contract terms is a DFR then every union negotiated contract ever negotiated would be illegal as they all disadvantage some minority members. The contract only has to comply with the court order which is easy and fall within legal DFR standards which grant the union almost total immunity for a negotiated ratified contract. Unions would not be able to function without the lattitude to reasonably compromise fairness issues.

Wakes order allows for and expects compromise to reach a ratified single contract subject only to the constraints of his court order assuming it survives appeal.

To be ratified the contract does not have to be industry leading but it has to contain industry standard pay rates of near $185/hr for A320 captains. It also must eliminate the value of the Nic seniority windfall since the company could not afford to pay for the windfall and expect to stay in business in this competitive industry.

What remains to be seen is which contract sections are used to neutralize the Nic damages and how many West members join USAPA to vote against a Nic neutered joint contract.

underpants

 

[Hawkhunter]

I believe many west pilots are good union people with solid moral principles


Man, I just fell out of my chair. Lets talk about how AWA got started. Remember Wien Air? Lets talk about Austraila. What a joke.

 

[Megasnoop]

Funny you deflected and did not answer the question at hand, and sorry not a pilot and dont have a dog in this fight, I am a former IAM M&R member who was on the negotiating committee, maybe instead of attacking me as a poster you might actually answer a question poised to you. How can the east claim integrity when your elected representatives agreed to binding arbitration and then try every trick known to get out of the decision cause you dont like it?

Yes you did claim an attack on your integrity:

Maybe if you acted with some integrity you wouldnt be where you are at now, integrity means you honor binding arbitration awards.

Seems to me its the east pilots who are acting holier than though and now a federal jury found your union has no integrity.

"now a federal jury found your union has no integrity?" Thats pure flame-bait, 700, and you know it.

So your no-dog-in-this-fight “integrity†requires you to post incessantly on pilot thread/issues? Under your definition of integrity I guess its not Ok for IAM union members to beat other union members to a bloody pulp at a union meeting? Or is your “integrity†so situational that you support those arrested and fired?

But just to set the record straight, it will be the Appeals court, not integrity, that determines whether USAPA must honor ALPAs binding arbitration award (singular). Our current elected representatives has nothing to do with the arbitration. In fact, if you want to examine “integrity†using your definition, how much integrity did ALPA Natl exhibit when they sat on the NIC for 6 months before presenting it to the company?

“Every trick?†By that do you mean we used “illegal†tricks? Or just availed ourselves of our legal rights, obviously to be challenged in court by those who thought their rights were violated?

While integrity has everything to do with what is right, legal, moral, it has nothing to do with stomping on ones soap box and proclaiming ones own integrity as more virtuous than others you disagree with. I heard this definition of integrity in comments by former Oklahoma Congressman J.C. Watts,

Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking and then not caring if anyone knows.

The rest of this integrity debate, whos got it, who doesn’t, is immature at best. 700, I think maybe you ought to go back to your own integrity board and talk IAM with those who will listen.

 

[cleardirect]

NYC,
The only unilateral seniority rights inherent in th Nic award are a few E190 positions and some allocated new aircraft positions which expire after 4 years plus "a list". The contract has 30 required negotiating sections and is subject to ratification of the union members eligible to vote.

If changing contract terms is a DFR then every union negotiated contract ever negotiated would be illegal as they all disadvantage some minority members. The contract only has to comply with the court order which is easy and fall within legal DFR standards which grant the union almost total immunity for a negotiated ratified contract. Unions would not be able to function without the lattitude to reasonably compromise fairness issues.

Wakes order allows for and expects compromise to reach a ratified single contract subject only to the constraints of his court order assuming it survives appeal.

To be ratified the contract does not have to be industry leading but it has to contain industry standard pay rates of near $185/hr for A320 captains. It also must eliminate the value of the Nic seniority windfall since the company could not afford to pay for the windfall and expect to stay in business in this competitive industry.

What remains to be seen is which contract sections are used to neutralize the Nic damages and how many West members join USAPA to vote against a Nic neutered joint contract.

underpants

Well finally. You are starting to get it. That is what the west and the judge has been saying. Usapa has the right to negotiate 29 out of 30 sections to balance a ratifiable contract. If ALPA and the east had realized that two years ago we would not have wasted the time and money with a DFR.

That has been my point since the draft injunction came out. Put a contract on the table and let’s see where we are. How balanced is it.

But don’t forget an important part of this order.

will implement the Nicolau Award seniority proposal unmodified, according to its terms.

That means no added C&R. There will be no DOH furloughs or anything like that. Look in your current contract. Where it says anything about seniority. It says system seniority. That will be the Nicolau list. Vacations, furloughs, bidding ect. Will be Nicolau. That is unmodified.

So now that we agree that usapa can negotiate the other sections can we move on now? Negotiate a contract and let the membership vote. Sooner rather then later. Let’s see what the NAC can do.

You may be right about west pilots voting against a contract. We are going to look at the ENTIRE contract and decide if it is acceptable or not. A single section does not make a contract.

 

[GuntherA320]

HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE

Getting a TA for a new contract is still years away. YEARS. The east controls the union. The west won't control the union for at least 10 years. The east only needs to negotiate within the confines of the law. We can't ask the company for things that are completely unreasonalbe ($300 an hour pay rates) We can however ask for industry standard payrates and work rules. The company has no interest in this. This will drag out for quite some time. The company only wants to negotiate 3 days a month. It is conceivable that the union could say as a result of this ruling we need to start the contract negotiations over from scratch. Meanwhile the westies will all join the union helping to fill the coffers (Thank you!) and the appeal will run it's course. By the time we actually get a TA to vote on many of the unanswered questions will be answered. Will the east get LOA 84 payrates? Will the ruling be overturned? Will pilots start retiring or medical out at 62? (This would start in Dec) I said last fall that this would be a long process. We are at the end of the second quarter. The score is tied. The east controls the union and the process. The west has a favorable ruling for them. What will the second half of this game hold? Will the appeal succeed? Will the company give the union reasonable (industry standard) pay and workrules? Will the economy recover? Will the company even be here in 3 years? Stay tuned for the second half. This is an exciting game!

 

[cleardirect]

While integrity has everything to do with what is right, legal, moral, it has nothing to do with stomping on ones soap box and proclaiming ones own integrity as more virtuous than others you disagree with. I heard this definition of integrity in comments by former Oklahoma Congressman J.C. Watts,

Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking and then not caring if anyone knows.

The rest of this integrity debate, whos got it, who doesn’t, is immature at best. 700, I think maybe you ought to go back to your own integrity board and talk IAM with those who will listen.

I find it strange that you post this quote.

The east has been struggling with being accused of having no integrity from the beginning. You post this quote with the last part saying not caring about who knows what you did.

Then why is it that it is always an east poster that is telling non pilots to go away? That it is none of their business what is going on here. I welcome any and all points of view. I welcome customers or members of other unions or pilots from other carriers. I welcome others to see and express their opinion of what is going on.

I think the problem the east has with others chiming in is that for the most part they all side with the west. So actually I care who knows, the more people the better what is going on. What is the problem with other voices expressing an opinion.

 

[EastUS]

I think the problem the east has with others chiming in is that for the most part they all side with the west.

You don't really get out much..do you?