US Pilots Labor Thread 6/2-6/9 STAY ON TOPIC

[ussnark]

For example, there is a big difference between a high ranking USAPA officer who says he would like to see all West pilots furloughed before any east pilots, and an east pilot who volunteers for the grievence committee to help fellow pilots. The former is actively seeking to harm the West, and the later is indirectly enableing the other to persue their goal.

So, you wish for no volunteers, in order that no "high ranking USAPA officer" would be "enabled" to seek a completely unrealistic goal? Huh? Could you please re-state what I hope may be a comment with unintended consequences.

 

[luvn737s]

Nic-
You mean that USAPA is primarily composed of RUSAP (REAL USAirways Pilots) who feel the west 1/3 of the pilot group is an unnecessary add-on, a superfluous option?

Tell me it ain't so.

 

[EastUS]

Just guessing from the moderators continued warnings stating they keep deleting post and issuing suspensions, I would venture to guess it is the reality of the cornfield that has set in. A few newbies have show up recently, but I am sure if you want to send a message to these individuals, there might still be lurking going on.

Nope. As for "reality" setting in = My perception is that's a suggestion that west cheeleaders have yet to have happen. I simply see little useful gains to be had from anyone continuing to attempt to alter the thinking of others. My original purposes on the board were to see if something other than the completely poisonous nic..as proven by the last two years...could be modified in any way by the west. Greed triumphed, and does to this day.

The court processes will have to run their course, however much time that takes. For all anyone yet knows; that could be years. At the very least; the east folks will await the LOA93 arbitration and see what happens from there. There's your "reality".

Given my personal experience with west jumpseat denial, and really, just the entire west mindset and antics ("and we hate you guys"/"I hate all of youse")...well...I just don't see much point in wasting much further time in any attempted discussion. No one's minds are being changed at all here, and; Life's just too short to waste in such fashion.

Time, and only time will tell the tale as to how all of this mess will go.

 

[Phoenix]

Trying to steal another man's job while hiding behind DOH is not a "core union value".

We're suppose to watch each other's back, not stab it.

Beebe? Is that you? We got you back brother. You were gone too long.

 

[ussnark]

You mean that USAPA is primarily composed of RUSAP (REAL USAirways Pilots) who feel the west 1/3 of the pilot group is an unnecessary add-on, a superfluous option?

However did you get that? Who would then fly all the west equipment, within your pre-merger career expectations?

 

[nic4us]

So, you wish for no volunteers, in order that no "high ranking USAPA officer" would be "enabled" to seek a completely unrealistic goal? Huh? Could you please re-state what I hope may be a comment with unintended consequences.

You are incorrectly extrapolating my wish. You are also stating that USAPA's DOH list with C&Rs is a "completely unrealistic goal". I used the furlough of the West, because it was a problem pointed out to the USAPA reps at the Phoenix roadshow, to which the reply was "yes I would rather see the west pilots furloughed on a DOH before the east pilots."

I respect the volunteers who give their time to help. I mentioned the grievence committe because I believe these folks in particular are working directly on the issues that effect us all, and therefore are more exposed to the company's position, the West position, and the need for eventual unity. Perhaps it will be from the grievence committee that the leader that Cleardirect seeks emerges.

 

[ussnark]

You are incorrectly extrapolating my wish. You are also stating that USAPA's DOH list with C&Rs is a "completely unrealistic goal". I used the furlough of the West, because it was a problem pointed out to the USAPA reps at the Phoenix roadshow, to which the reply was "yes I would rather see the west pilots furloughed on a DOH before the east pilots."

I respect the volunteers who give their time to help. I mentioned the grievence committe because I believe these folks in particular are working directly on the issues that effect us all, and therefore are more exposed to the company's position, the West position, and the need for eventual unity. Perhaps it will be from the grievence committee that the leader that Cleardirect seeks emerges.

I posted an extrapolation based on what you posted. I am glad you corrected yourself.

Cleardirect seeks not unity, but someone who can guarantee "his" seniority as he see fit. Big diff. I suspect that unity will not happen in our lifetimes. I have the experience that can make the west person feel wonderful or miserable. Your choice. That, my friend, is what experience is all about.

 

[Ardenian]

Beebe? Is that you? We got you back brother.

Don't beat up on Chris, he was only spending our dues money to protect us front-line pukes who were too stupid to do it ourselves.

Thanks, Chris. I appreciate the tremendous sacrifice you made for all of us by living in that $7500/mo townhouse (nice digs they were, eh?) and driving that new Town Car each year (had to have it, never know when you were going to be picking up Dr. Bronner from the airport again), neither of which you paid for.

Not to mention having to eat in restaurants every night (that place in Alexandria where you and Stephan hung out was top-shelf, eh? No expense was spared to polish those brass poles...). At least they didn't make you lower yourself to crap like Friday's, and allowed you to pay for it with that Platinum card. You know, the one from your unlimited expense account, for which monthly records will never be made public?

Poor, poor, Chris...

 

[Ardenian]

Don't beat up on Chris, he was only spending our dues money to protect us front-line pukes who were too stupid to do it ourselves.

This is one of the reasons the U pilots dumped ALPA. No representation. Every MEC meeting had ALPA lawyers in the background manipulating weak-minded pollocks, er, puppets to protect their interests, completely disregarding the needs and desires of the line pilot and subordinating them to the machine. The lawyers had no part in the struggle to make the union great; they came on board once it had been running for years, and they milked it dry like a pregnant bovine.

As imperfect as it may be, our new union is head and shoulders above the previous cesspool-dwelling "representatives." Let's see what happens over the next few years.

 

[cleardirect]

This is one of the reasons the U pilots dumped ALPA. No representation. Every MEC meeting had ALPA lawyers in the background manipulating weak-minded pollocks, er, puppets to protect their interests, completely disregarding the needs and desires of the line pilot and subordinating them to the machine. The lawyers had no part in the struggle to make the union great; they came on board once it had been running for years, and they milked it dry like a pregnant bovine.

As imperfect as it may be, our new union is head and shoulders above the previous cesspool-dwelling "representatives." Let's see what happens over the next few years.

I am sorry. Are you speaking of lawyers from the Lee Seham firm?

 

[luvn737s]

As imperfect as it may be, our new union is head and shoulders above the previous cesspool-dwelling "representatives." Let's see what happens over the next few years.

In what ways specifically? What have they delivered that ALPA could not?

 

[hp_fa]

Let's see what happens over the next few years.

You mean besides fully funding the profit sharing plan at SSM&P?

 

[Megasnoop]

This is one of the reasons the U pilots dumped ALPA. No representation. Every MEC meeting had ALPA lawyers in the background manipulating weak-minded pollocks, er, puppets to protect their interests, completely disregarding the needs and desires of the line pilot and subordinating them to the machine. The lawyers had no part in the struggle to make the union great; they came on board once it had been running for years, and they milked it dry like a pregnant bovine.

As imperfect as it may be, our new union is head and shoulders above the previous cesspool-dwelling "representatives." Let's see what happens over the next few years.

Wow, Ardenian, telling it like it is! ALPA lawyers choking every meeting, vetting every news release or writing them themselves, coming up with one way after another to keep the rank and file membership from recall meeting on the CLT Reps. It was outside lawyers from Cohen Wies and Simon pulling the strings for National, not the contract administrators. Your right, CWS started representing ALPA in the late 40s long after ALPA organized most of airline pilots. Theyve been milking that cash cow to over $6M per year, if I got the LM-2s right. No wonder they always lurking behind the curtain, to protect their turf.

Warts and all, your right, we have control over our union, not answering to the "tool." Im not on board with all the leadership, but they are our elected leadership. Contrary to ALPA, if we want any of them out, we can do it. snoopo

 

[aquagreen73s]

Wow, Ardenian, telling it like it is! ALPA lawyers choking every meeting, vetting every news release or writing them themselves, coming up with one way after another to keep the rank and file membership from recall meeting on the CLT Reps.

Perhaps it was that adult supervision which kept the East pilot group from harming themselves any more than they did under ALPA. Just look at what happened the moment they got away from professional handlers: they hired an ambulance chaser, put the pedal to the metal and drove straight off the DFR cliff. In record time nonetheless!

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop,

If I were a plaintiff or plaintiffs' attorney in the Addington suit I would be making a very concerted effort to specifically exclude any West pilots (USAPA members or objectors) from being responsible for the portion of dues or agency fees that represents legal costs or fees, along with any costs incurred by USAPA due to the various legal proceedings. Failing to be exempt from those monies effectively means that the plaintiffs are paying a proportion of the opponent's legal fees and costs when that same opponent is the party that is being found to be the party that acted contrary to law.

Im still not convinced your not a plaintiff. No one who has a life and claims to not to have a dog in this fight would be spending so much time fretting over this and being so one-sided. Your pie-in-the-sky will never happen that way, hp, no matter what Plaintiffs "Plan 9 From Outer Space" tells the judge. USAPA legal fees will be paid by the bargaining unit. The bargaining unit, not just members. U.S. Supreme Court case Ellis V The Railway Labor Clerks. Once upon a time in a galaxy far far away…, actually the Ninth Circuit; a RLA case emerged called Ellis v. Railway Labor Clerks (actually a Western Airlines case). The plaintiffs, (Ellis), didn’t want to have their dues pay for certain union activities and so they went to court and the case ended up before the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court stated in its preamble,

Section 2, Eleventh of the Railway Labor Act permits a union and an employer to require all employees in the relevant bargaining unit to join the union as a condition of continued employment. Petitioners, present or former clerical employees who objected to the use of their compelled dues or fees for specified union activities, filed separate suits (later consolidated) in Federal District Court against the respondents.
The parties disagreed about the adequacy of the rebate scheme, and about the legality of charging objecting employees with union expenses for (1) the national union's quadrennial Grand Lodge convention, (2) litigation not involving the negotiation of agreements or settlement of grievances, (3) union publications, (4) social activities, (5) death benefits for employees, and (6) general organizing.
(Boys and girls, pay attention to (2) litigation….)

In the text, they stated,

We remain convinced that Congress' essential justification for authorizing the union shop was the desire to eliminate free riders - employees in the bargaining unit on whose behalf the union was obliged to perform its statutory functions, but who refused to contribute to the cost thereof. Only a [466 U.S. 435, 448] union that is certified as the exclusive bargaining agent is authorized to negotiate a contract requiring all employees to become members of or to make contributions to the union.

Hence, when employees such as petitioners object to being burdened with particular union expenditures, the test must be whether the challenged expenditures are necessarily or reasonably incurred for the purpose of performing the duties of an exclusive representative of the employees in dealing with the employer on labor-management issues. Under this standard, objecting employees may be compelled to pay their fair share of not only the direct costs of negotiating and administering a collective-bargaining contract and of settling grievances and disputes, but also the expenses of activities or undertakings normally or reasonably employed to implement or effectuate the duties of the union as exclusive representative of the employees in the bargaining unit.
With these considerations in mind, we turn to the particular expenditures for which petitioners insist they may not be charged.
…..5. Litigation. The expenses of litigation incident to negotiating and administering the contract or to settling grievances and disputes arising in the bargaining unit are clearly chargeable to petitioners as a normal incident of the duties of the exclusive representative. The same is true of fair representation litigation arising within the unit, of jurisdictional disputes with other unions, and of any other litigation before agencies or in the courts that concerns bargaining unit employees and is normally conducted by the exclusive representative.

So there you have it, hp. By a 8-1 vote, the Supremes said DFR litigation expense is germane. What did USAPAs auditors say about the basis of germane and non-germane expenses? 94%! Don’t all members of the bargaining unit have to pay legitimate germane expenses? Answer to “Whose goanna pay for all of this….â€￾ Thats easy, everybody, East and West, regardless of membership status. Sniping, taking potshots, flame bating isnt going to change the Supreme Court ruling.
Good night, hp. Hope the above doesnt give you nitemares.