US Pilots Labor Thread 6/2-6/9 STAY ON TOPIC

[hp_fa]

Interesting that you engage in so much speculation, especially for one who works in the legal field...you, of all people, should know better.

First I would contend there is a difference between speculation and hypothetical thinking. Secondly I contend that thinking in terms of alternatives and abstract thinking are both good things.

If someone isn't thinking ahead then they will likely lose to someone at anything in life is looking past the present. One must think ahead more than one or two moves to be successful.

Are there surprises in life? Sure. But thinking past the present lessens surprises.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Actually, I failed to fully realize the harm that USAPA is conceivably doing to the West folks because their contract was already amenable and all of this delay is actually costing West folks money from their already amenable contract. The West's contract has now been amenable for nearly 2.5 years whereas the East contract has not.

That might be true, except that the west contract became amendable while ALPA was still the CBA and the west had their own MEC. Even their own MEC, though legally entitled to do so, did not start Section 6 negotiations at the appropriate time. Can you figure out a way to blame that on USAPA, too?

 

[cleardirect]

That might be true, except that the west contract became amendable while ALPA was still the CBA and the west had their own MEC. Even their own MEC, though legally entitled to do so, did not start Section 6 negotiations at the appropriate time. Can you figure out a way to blame that on USAPA, too?

Easy. Alpa has been gone for over a year. This is now usapa's fault only them. If usapa has any intention of going to section 6 for the east then they should be demanding sction 6 for the west NOW.

 

[cleardirect]

HP-FA,

I agree that it could be 48-60 months from now. Entirely possible. I was trying to be positive.

That is money that none of us will ever make up.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

First I would contend there is a difference between speculation and hypothetical thinking.

SPECULATION:

4. conjectural consideration of a matter; conjecture or surmise: a report based on speculation rather than facts.


HYPOTHETICAL:

a. (of a proposition) highly conjectural; not well supported by available evidence.


Maybe it’s me HP…I don’t see the difference…

 

[luvn737s]

Look, anyone with any interest in this at all knew that no matter what happened with the verdict, the loser would appeal. This whole thing will run it's course and no argument, especially here, will stop it. What is new for me is the obvious despiration I'm reading from the West pilots to get the Nic in place. I know, you won and you want access to the widebodies and East flying.

It's coming. We need a contract. The company doesn't want one.

So there.

A320 Driver B)

No, I couldn't hold widebody captain in PHL under Nic.

The west is clamoring for Nic because it is the gate which must be passed in order to get a better contract.

Also, the west has some history of betrayal of their support: from the founders of the airline who made stock purchase a condition of employment and then ultimately made that stock worthless, to various union leaders who promised more than they delivered, to a merger that held some promise, but became the west's darkest hour. The pilots of America West have a history of pulling for those who promised to improve their careers. But they also have a history of dealing with those who would jeopardize their careers: from a vehemently anti-labor former CEO to an equally anti-pilot union who is their current advesary.

The west pilots are willing to support a union that supports them.

The east has to get over the idea that USAPA is their private club into which no west pilot will be invited. As a labor union, they are obligated to provide equally enthusiastic support for all pilots and find compromises (within law) that preserve the union over the individual agendas of any one group.

Sure USAPA can ignore the east and west non-members, that's their right. But many times you do more good by doing what you SHOULD rather than what you CAN. Poll all the pilots and see how a union with 100% participation would be directed.

YES, I understand who is permitted to vote, but a vote and a poll are not necessarily the same thing. One dictates actions to be taken or places persons in leadership position, the other merely provides the pulse of the issue among the pilot group.

Wise leadership is not threatened by opinion, but responds to it.

 

[Megasnoop]

As for polling, solidarity and the like, the simplest way to prove everyone wrong is to negotiate the best possible contract using Nicolau and see if the vote passes or fails. That would serve as the ultimate poll.

Once again, Your trying to twist and frame the debate, hp. Your trying to tell us what to do (negotiate with the NIC) long before we are required to do so. I think we need a poll. When it gets down to pay, Section 22, vacation, other major contract issue, polling makes sense. Again, its an instant snapshot. Negotiations, however, based on the way the company is deliberately stalling, at best will take another year. I'm going to recommend to my BPR today that we poll.


But back to the latest caus-celeb, just when we thought AWAPPA had been marginalized by their big brothers in AOL, along comes this from AWAPPA:

ATTENTION OBJECTORS!
Germane expenses to be challenged

All non-member objectors should have received USAPA's 2008 Germane Expense Report in the mail by now. We are currently finalizing an update that discusses the report as well as challenge procedures. We are also currently organizing a combined East/West germane expense challenge that will require USAPA to justify its germane expense calculations to a neutral arbitrator.

So, AOL says join, AWAPPA says object. All I can say is go for it! Raise the money for arbitration, and if you lose, raise more money for a lawsuit. Wait the 4-6 years it takes to get that one to the Supreme Court and you got a winner. NOT! I think the first thing you’d get from an arbitrator is, “guys, I’d like to help you, but there’s this nasty Ellis Award I got to follow.â€

Even the pseudo-uninterested legal beagle hp_fa is having trouble getting around the language of the SCOTUS Ellis to make a case for DFR costs not being germane. Unless there’s opposing case law that changes high court’s Ellis analysis, it’s an arbitration loser. It would take a run to the Supreme Court to change Ellis status quo. Ellis was funded for the most part by NRTW, National Right to Work, a union-busting organization out of Alexandria, Va. From their limited point of view, NRTW got solid win in Ellis. I doubt if they take a chance on exposing their old win to the considerably more liberal (despite Alito and Roberts) court than Berger's 25 years ago.

A claim against germane expenses must first get past the arbitrator that the petitioner and USAPA select. Then if the petitioner loses, he goes to a Federal court, then an appeals court, then the Supreme Court, lots of $$ and 4-6 years. It could cost more than the money saved and don't expect help from NRTW.


On another subject, The Court’s Rakestraw analysis further debunks the Count 2 claim. Plaintiffs claim that "bad faith" exists because USAPA didn't negotiate for the NIC. Bad faith in the context of a DFR suit can only be between the bargaining agent and the employer. Hp_fa still misses that.

The internal squabbles of the bargaining unit constitute the basis for DFR. The Railway Labor Act and supporting case law give rise to the basis for "bad faith.†Judge Wake alluded to that from the bench. Basically he said to Seham that the beauty of that approach was that since other agencies and standards would determine bad faith, it is not necessary for his court to do so. That is where plaintiffs can find relief, if any. This was in response to plaintiffs’ wanting more than just injunctive relief. They wanted the NIC or some other form of relief that would furlough East guys and give jobs to West guys etc. That won't happen.

 

[nic4us]

What would happen if pig butts smelled like roses?

We would all eat pork on valentines Day???

 

[hp_fa]

Even the pseudo-uninterested legal beagle hp_fa is having trouble getting around the language of the SCOTUS Ellis to make a case for DFR costs not being germane.

No, I believe that the holding in Ellis is distinguishable from Addington on a factual basis. That said, I do agree that Ellis contained the phrase "fair representation" when describing costs that are allowed in what are considered germane costs for a non-member to rightfully be charged as part of their rightful fees. I just don't currently believe that "fair representation" costs as used in Ellis is the functional equivalent of costs incurred in a Duty of Fair Representation lawsuit such as those incurred in Addington.

On another subject, The Court’s Rakestraw analysis further debunks the Count 2 claim. Plaintiffs claim that "bad faith" exists because USAPA didn't negotiate for the NIC. Bad faith in the context of a DFR suit can only be between the bargaining agent and the employer. Hp_fa still misses that.

So far as I can tell Judge Wake has not appeared to believe that any portion of Rakestraw is applicable to Addington despite Seham's continued reliance of Rakestraw. The plaintiffs have continuously contended that USAPA's counsel has misread what Rakestraw actually stands for and, as I just said, the Judge appears to have not accepted Rakestraw as being applicable in Addington in the way that USAPA desires.

 

[nic4us]

That might be true, except that the west contract became amendable while ALPA was still the CBA and the west had their own MEC. Even their own MEC, though legally entitled to do so, did not start Section 6 negotiations at the appropriate time. Can you figure out a way to blame that on USAPA, too?

Well almost. I believe the west MEC secured a date to start section 6 negotiations prior to the election. The MEC chair informed the new union president of that date in his last letter as MEC chair. The response from the new union was that seperate contract talks would not take place. So I am guessing USAPA cancelled the West section 6, not ALPA.

 

[hp_fa]

Interesting that Brengle has parted ways with USAPA.

Can anyone confirm that this is true?

I'll point out that my trial notes actually comment favorably upon Mr. Bringle despite my so called slanted view of the world.

(The truth is that I thought that he was trying really hard to be an advocate for his client. He also, to the best of my knowledge, had no role in the legal advice provided to USAPA outside of the litigation. Of course the same can't be said for Seham who is acting as general counsel and the main trial attorney for USAPA despite the charade of Bringle being designated as "lead counsel" at the trial. BTW, I say charade simply because Seham had so aggravated Judge Wake prior to trial (actually by December 2008) that he found it necessary to do so and yet which USAPA attorney provided the Opening Statement, Closing Statement and handled the direct examination of USAPA's most important witnesses?)

 

[ussnark]

I believe the west MEC secured a date to start section 6 negotiations prior to the election.

I am certain that "filing" must be, then, available to the public. Care to post a link?

 

[Hawkhunter]

You were wrong in thinking that DOH was ever a possibility under the ALPA merger policy.

When you put a Reserve First Officer on the seniority list ahead of a Captain you are stealing that Captain's job.

When you furlough a thousand West pilots before you furlough the bottom East pilot you are stealing a thousand jobs.

I'm a First Officer and I give my opinion to everybody I fly with when the subject comes up.

Whatever you say .

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

I am slowly starting to understand the east mentality. You guys say that you don’t need to poll because everyone knows what the east pilots want.

There is no way that the east would vote for a contract with the Nicolau. No need to poll. We just accept that as fact and delay and waste time and money.

The east pilots will spend whatever it takes to chase DOH even go to court. OK we did that. Usapa lost but that is not good enough.

The pension fund was terminated 5 years ago. But the east decided that $700,000 is needed just to confirm that it is indeed truly gone. OK.

The east now wants the court of appeals to truly for sure make sure that the Nicolau is indeed the list that will be used. OK!

I am beginning to understand that the east pilots have a problem with acceptance. Unless it complies with the east version of reality then the east will not accept it. Could this be one of the reasons that LOA93 is a reality? Could this be why the east is the bottom of the industry?

I accept that the east wants to go to appeal. OK! That’s fine you guys go do what you think that you need. It is a bit naive to think that walking in a crew room will give you an accurate indication of what the group wants. Anyone that has ever done any polling knows that the sample is very important. You could poll only the top 10% of the seniority list and get a result. Poll the bottom of the list and get a different result. Allow the vocal pilots to control the sample and you get a different result. You have been talking to the crew room experts is a self selected sample.

You will not get accurate data.

But you guys go ahead and appeal. I actually encourage it. Because once the court appeals decides to affirm the district court it finally puts an end to this. What will be the excuse if the appeal court affirms this? Will it be some incompetent group of judge’s that also don’t understand the law only Seham does? Usapa is painting themselves into a smaller and smaller box. An arbitrator ruled, Currently we have a federal jury deciding this DFR. Once the court of appeals confirms this decision it sets this in concrete. What more do you want to accept this? So please continue. Remove all of the excuses.

You guys waste time on a long shot hoping for snapback. That is at least 12 months away. The appeal is at least 18 months away. The pension recovery should have an answer in 3-6 months. All of this puts a contract somewhere between 18-36 months away.

When it was just the east pilot harming yourselves , OK. Put because of your inability to accept reality the east is doing real harm to the west. As this goes on the east is costing the west real money. The longer this goes on the more damages I am going to want. How does the east pay back the west for all of this? B scale, delay in the east pay raise, that $70 million gets paid to the west? The west is going to want payback.

Glad you finally caught up to current events. Not sure why this needs to be said 1000 times...this travesty is not going to go unchallenged...I gather you all want to quickly smoke a peace-pipe and ginny up a contract right away....

Only an imbecile would miss the motive here.

We're happy to disappoint you with that. As has been discussed to death...an appeal was a no-brainer. Why are you surprised? AOL would appeal a loss as well.

Time to smell the coffee...or not.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

I am slowly starting to understand the east mentality. You guys say that you don’t need to poll because everyone knows what the east pilots want.

There is no way that the east would vote for a contract with the Nicolau. No need to poll. We just accept that as fact and delay and waste time and money.

The east pilots will spend whatever it takes to chase DOH even go to court. OK we did that. Usapa lost but that is not good enough.

The pension fund was terminated 5 years ago. But the east decided that $700,000 is needed just to confirm that it is indeed truly gone. OK.

The east now wants the court of appeals to truly for sure make sure that the Nicolau is indeed the list that will be used. OK!

I am beginning to understand that the east pilots have a problem with acceptance. Unless it complies with the east version of reality then the east will not accept it. Could this be one of the reasons that LOA93 is a reality? Could this be why the east is the bottom of the industry?

I accept that the east wants to go to appeal. OK! That’s fine you guys go do what you think that you need. It is a bit naive to think that walking in a crew room will give you an accurate indication of what the group wants. Anyone that has ever done any polling knows that the sample is very important. You could poll only the top 10% of the seniority list and get a result. Poll the bottom of the list and get a different result. Allow the vocal pilots to control the sample and you get a different result. You have been talking to the crew room experts is a self selected sample.

You will not get accurate data.

But you guys go ahead and appeal. I actually encourage it. Because once the court appeals decides to affirm the district court it finally puts an end to this. What will be the excuse if the appeal court affirms this? Will it be some incompetent group of judge’s that also don’t understand the law only Seham does? Usapa is painting themselves into a smaller and smaller box. An arbitrator ruled, Currently we have a federal jury deciding this DFR. Once the court of appeals confirms this decision it sets this in concrete. What more do you want to accept this? So please continue. Remove all of the excuses.

You guys waste time on a long shot hoping for snapback. That is at least 12 months away. The appeal is at least 18 months away. The pension recovery should have an answer in 3-6 months. All of this puts a contract somewhere between 18-36 months away.

When it was just the east pilot harming yourselves , OK. Put because of your inability to accept reality the east is doing real harm to the west. As this goes on the east is costing the west real money. The longer this goes on the more damages I am going to want. How does the east pay back the west for all of this? B scale, delay in the east pay raise, that $70 million gets paid to the west? The west is going to want payback.

The west currently enjoys about 20% more in compensation than the East (who is all too willing to appeal to the 9th)...what is the problem here? The union is conducting it's business as directed by the membership. It's meeting with a company who now wants a mediator that is only available a few days per quarter...but, hey...they're in there swingin' the bat for you. They are also pursuing an appeal process in accordance with the majority of the membership.

Your complaining changes none of these facts.

Your "payback" is laughable under the circumstances.